Second Life Bar Association Meeting TranscriptApril 4, 2007
The transcript from tonight's first organizational meeting of the SLBA follows. Here is a brief summary.
1) Project teams were formed to explore the following areas:
- Creation of a Dispute Resolution/Justice System (possibly working with other organizations moving toward those goals).
- Voluntary Credential Verification
- Pro Bono Possibilities In-World
- Legal Practice Assistance (marketing, referrals, office space, etc.)
Note: there's now a forum set up for each of these, so dive in - I know there's a lot of interest in all four areas.
2) L$500/year dues were passed to defray costs of land ownership, website maintenance, etc. Existing members dues will be due one year from today. New members will pay $500 to join the organization, going forward.
3) We tabled all discussion of elections to the next meeting to give everyone who couldn't make it a chance to weigh in via the forums.
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Second Life Bar Association
Meeting Transcript - April 18, 2007
Benjamin Noble: Welcome, everybody. I know a few more are coming, but I'm going to get started so we can stick to the schedule.
Benjamin Noble: Thanks a lot for coming out, and staying with me over the last few months (some of you know I've been on vacation for awhile).
Benjamin Noble: I didn't forget about this, just got married, moved, quit my job, started a web site, and am writing a novel.
Benjamin Noble: :-)
Cristalle Karami: work-life balance, eh
Rebecca Berkman: congrats.
Benjamin Noble: Yes, exactly!
Benjamin Noble: So thanks, we'll be on track to actually get some stuff done going forward.
Benjamin Noble grins.
Benjamin Noble: Work life balance meant I'm not an associate with Kirkland anymore.
Benjamin Noble: Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Benjamin Noble: Let me start there... I'm not sure how many people have tracked me down, but I'm pretty open about stuff.
Benjamin Noble: My real name is Benjamin Duranske, and I was an IP litigator in San Francisco for four years.
Benjamin Noble: Just moved to Boise, Idaho with my wife, and am taking a sabbatical to write a book.
Benjamin Noble: She's a lawyer too, but doesn't get why this is fun or important, not one bit.
Benjamin Noble: I think her avatar is still on newbie island.
Pelanor Eldrich: She's from Boise.
Benjamin Noble grins.
Benjamin Noble: She's here with me now - we met in law school in Berkeley.
Sorek Tomsen nods knowingly
Benjamin Noble: Anyway, that's my story.
Rhyder Thibaud: Go Bears, Fellow Boaltie.
Benjamin Noble: I have a website at http://www.virtuallyblind.com -- yeah Bears! -- where I track virtual law.
Benjamin Noble laughs.
Benjamin Noble: I only made it to *one* football game.
Benjamin Noble: But I'm not going to stay on as head of this for long. A lot to do, and I want it to be an organically grown organization anyway, which means me not being up here all the time.
Benjamin Noble: It's odd, sort of, like always here. I know just about nothing about you all and you likely know little about each other (with a few exceptions).
Benjamin Noble: Let mw ask a few questions... Let's start just by doing a roll call, so the transcript will keep track of who is here. Can everybody say hi, ID thelselves somehow?
Rebecca Berkman: what sort of info do you want?
Benjamin Noble: Just introduce yourself - are you a lawyer, student, etc. Whatever you're comfortable saying, so we all get an idea who's here. Maybe general location, if you want to.
Sorek Tomsen: Hi: Robert Boucher (Soren Tomsen), San Francisco attorney -- studying for the patent bar.
Sorek Tomsen: (Sorek)
Benjamin Noble: Nice weather back in SF yet, or is it still raining?
Zuling Zhaoying: Hi. Zuling. Law student.
Sorek Tomsen: Clear but cold.
Jessica Holyoke: hi, Jessica Holyoke, Philadelphia law student, 28 days from graduating
Wendell Holmer: I'm Wendell Holmer, from the Boston area, partner at a business law firm.
Benjamin Noble nods.
Auction Hammerer: Auction Hammerer, Law student, South Florida
Cristalle Karami: Cristalle Karami, attorney, New York.
Rebecca Berkman: I'm Rebecca Berkman -- Rebecca Nesson in RL. In SL I run Berkman Island, Harvar Law School's island where we hold open acess classes and are developing some dispute resolution, mock trial facilities. Non-practicing lawyer and practicing computer science student.
von Neumann: Hello, [] (von Neumann) corporate office, ISS Limited, Portland, Oregon, USA
Rhyder Thibaud: I'm Rhyder Thibaud, I am a trial lawyer from San Francisco.
Raychel Slade: law student, florida.
Rhett Whitfield: Hi. Rhett Whitfield -- patent attorney in Atlanta
Pelanor Eldrich: Pelanor Eldrich, my ex-girlfriend is a law student.
Lash Stuer is a trial lawyer from Ohio
BillyT Coakes: BillyT Coakes patent attorney from Atlanta
Gelf Yalin: Michael Goode, attorney in Atlanta
Benjamin Noble grins. And Pelanor is involved in government just about every way it is flavored.
Benjamin Noble: So that's good, I'd say. I was hoping most here were actually attorneys, students, librarians, etc., and not folks who wanted to role play perry mason (at least not exclusively).
Benjamin Noble: I don't have a problem with it, of course, but if that was what people wanted I'm afraid this organization is going to be pretty boring.
Wendell Holmer: Can you answer a question for us, Benjamin?
Benjamin Noble: Sure.
Wendell Holmer: There are no courts here, as far as i know, no binding dispute resolution process. How are bargains enforced?
Benjamin Noble grins. The million dollar question.
Benjamin Noble: There are a few systems that people are experimenting with.
Wendell Holmer: Thanks!
Jessica Holyoke smiles at that
Benjamin Noble: Some of them involve punishments for people who break deals (e.g. - banishment from land, etc.)
Benjamin Noble: Others are just straight contracts within the world. You can contract here just like in the real world, at least that's the theory, and they'd be just as enforceable in a *real* court.
Dex Debevec: Hello. My name is Dex Debevec, an IP attorney in Atlanta, GA.
Benjamin Noble: For example, some games here have separate license agreements that you sign to play.
Benjamin Noble: In theory, they could enforce those in a real court.
Jessica Holyoke: What games are those Ben?
Benjamin Noble: And though there's no court system here, some private sims (e.g. the CDS) has tried to create a court system for their sim.
Rhyder Thibaud: initially it is sim driven but ultimately it is the Lindens. There are systems similar to the american arbitration system. but no form of common law or rules of evidence. Copyright for in world made products does not exisit. I do not agree that a court here can enforce, under what threat? Under what jurisdiction?
Benjamin Noble: Darklife is one, I believe.
Benjamin Noble: You agree to something to buy the toys that let you play.
Benjamin Noble: Though I haven't played it.
Benjamin Noble: I think that's exactly right, Rhyder.
Wendell Holmer: Say that again, Rhyder.
Cristalle Karami: people typically DMCA LL for copyright infringement issues.
Auction Hammerer: Can we work with Linden Labs to develop an offer and acceptance of a contract?
Benjamin Noble: Private people and groups can make policy here, but there's not going to be a "court system" unless it comes from the software, e.g., the Lindens. Though people keep trying.
Benjamin Noble: Auction - that's exactly where I'm guessing it will go, and I'd think the SLBA would be the right organization to lobby for it.
Rhyder Thibaud: ((please pardon the spam)) [19:14] Benjamin Noble: initially it is sim driven but ultimately it is the Lindens. There are systems similar to the american arbitration system. but no form of common law or rules of evidence. Copyright for in world made products does not exisit. I do not agree that a court here can enforce, under what threat? Under what jurisdiction?
Auction Hammerer: same as friendship offer....
Rebecca Berkman: It is dangerous for the Lindens to get too involved. They endanger their DMCA safe harbor status if they have actual knowledge of infringing activities.
Wendell Holmer: Well, there are certain ways you can put a hook in someone. If you buy land and don't pay your tier fees,
Auction Hammerer: with conditions
Wendell Holmer: you get evicted.
Rhyder Thibaud: that is right, ignorance of the isp is bliss.
Benjamin Noble: Rhyder - I think the idea of enforcing copyright here is that it wouldn't really happen here, not if it was big enough. Someone will sue in real life over it.
Auction Hammerer: Linden Labs is openning their servers up to everyone
Cristalle Karami: Rebecca, I meant that they send LL the takedown notice, in the same way one would send to a normal ISP
Wendell Holmer: You can buy a gucci bag here.
Auction Hammerer: and gucci could get royalites..
Wendell Holmer: But he doesn't
Theophan Paine raises his hand.
Benjamin Noble: Exactly right, Cristalle. And Wendell, I think that Trademark is a bigger first issue than copyright - that's going to get some companies attention in the next 6 months, I'm guesing.
Auction Hammerer: but they could
Jessica Holyoke: how would gucci get royalties?
Auction Hammerer: everything is has an id here
Benjamin Noble: Theophan...
Jessica Holyoke: for trademark infringement?
Rhyder Thibaud: Well, I'm referring to the Lossing memo and other writings on SL in particular. That give people who make stuff here the propritary rights, freeing the ability of this stuff to be made and enjoyed.
Wendell Holmer: So, whom does Gucci sue?
Auction Hammerer: why sue
Rebecca Berkman: Yes, Cristalle, that does work. However, if they sponsor an in-world court system they start to incur responsibility to enforce copyright (and make judgments about infringement) without takedown notices.
Benjamin Noble: Gucci would get the names from LL via a subpoena.
Wendell Holmer: Sue to protect your brand
Benjamin Noble: And then send a letter, followup with a suit.
Theophan Paine: Sorry, I am not sure this question is in order according to the agenda, but can we talk about the volutuntary credential service you envison.
Auction Hammerer: just charge the violator
Benjamin Noble: And that's a case I see happening.
Auction Hammerer: a fee
Benjamin Noble: Sure. This is a bit of a free for all, but honestly, that's better. We'll get to everything.
Wendell Holmer: Can you imagine what it's going to be like when the subpoenas start landing on the Linens?
Sorek Tomsen: /grins, not very formal Benjamin
Benjamin Noble: Not very.
Benjamin Noble laughs.
Benjamin Noble: But I am wearing a suit.
Jessica Holyoke: hope they got a good in-house counsel
Wendell Holmer: They are going to be very busy.
Benjamin Noble: I was a guy who used to work for the same firm I did, but he move to VP of something else.
Sorek Tomsen: They could probably just program a bot.
Rebecca Berkman: Their legal dept is already a big expense for them.
Wendell Holmer: And what about privacy rights?
Auction Hammerer: Gucci is getting advertisement, you could charge them to make their bags here
Wendell Holmer: People come here to be anonymous
Cristalle Karami: privacy? in SL, what IS that? lol
Benjamin Noble: If *I* were going to enforce TMs here, I'd get in touch first, and make sure they were on board, knew that Tuesday was subpoena day, etc.
Benjamin Noble: A lot of providers are pretty sophisticated at handling them.
Wendell Holmer: hahaha
Benjamin Noble: So let's talk about the verification thing, since that came up in the forums.
Theophan Paine: Yes, Ben that is my experience too, ISPs know what to do with subpeonas, like telcos.
Benjamin Noble: I know some people who are practicing here really want somebody to confirm that they're really attorneys.
Benjamin Noble: The SLBA could have that role fairly easily, though it would involve some paperwork, and could expose us to liability ourselves.
Rhyder Thibaud: trademarks should be protected, many commerical firms are accessing SL to promote. big dilution and confusion issues.
Benjamin Noble: (Ugh)
Pelanor Eldrich: My personal belief is that LL has no desire whatsover to be involved in resident disputes. These will be handled in local communities using local courts, enforced by threat of ban or forfeiture of escrowed assets (land, $L, objects).
Theophan Paine: Maybe we should incorporate in an offshore jurisdiction?
Benjamin Noble: TM's are a huge, huge issue here. I really think it's the #1 thing that will bring a lot of litigation.
Wendell Holmer: Hey! How about a reputation rating system, like on eBay?
Sorek Tomsen: Like anywhere. Caymans
Lash Stuer: Isn't SL an offshore jurisdiction?
Rhyder Thibaud: I agree Pelanor, on the sim level it ought to be user enforced.
Rebecca Berkman: I totally agree with Pelanor.
Theophan Paine: SL is not a jurisdiction, that is my opinion, anyway.
Wendell Holmer: Well, no courts.
Benjamin Noble: They might not, Pelanor, but they've got to deal with subpoenas whether they want to or not, and that's the shortcut that coudl force them to get at least that invovled.
Cristalle Karami: reputation ratings are going the way of the dinosaur. see SL official blog. takes up too many resources
Rhyder Thibaud: they tried ratings, and there is a private outfit doing it now. They get jimmied all the time.
Benjamin Noble nods.
BillyT Coakes: Rights of Publicity is another big issue lots of naked avatars and pictures of celebrities on SL . . . so I'm told :-)
Rebecca Berkman: LL could agree to enforce decisions of an in-world dispute resolution system as long as it was resident-governed. It woudl be a hard sell.
Benjamin Noble: What I was thinking was something simple - if you want to get a title that says SLBA Verified Attorney, you'd need to submit an affidavit and a copy of your bar card.
Rhyder Thibaud: you can go to many vendors and get a hot celeb skin, that raises real issues. but apparnetly no body had done anything about it for the cost it would entail and prob the celebs think it is cool.
Wendell Holmer: Temporarily
Wendell Holmer: Ask Metallica
Theophan Paine: That sounds like a good idea Ben, we should have a committee reviewing them and issuing the certificates.
Rhyder Thibaud: Ouch Benjamin, I mean, anonymity here is very key to some. and metalica are TM freaks.
von Neumann: If you're going to limit SLBA membership to IRL attys, then I'm not useful here.
von Neumann: Also, what about non-USA attys?
Jessica Holyoke: Wasn't the celebrity issue discussed awhile back? Isn't there also an issue that "looking like a celebrity" is not the same as purchasing "celebrity's item?"
Theophan Paine: We can certainly have non-attorney members.
Benjamin Noble: The big issue on both TM and celebs is the dilution - if they let it go, they are in a sense condoning it, so there's motivation to stop it whether they *really* care about the few instances here or not.
Rhyder Thibaud: but they are profiting off the likeness.
Benjamin Noble: Got to back up to the thing about verification.
Cristalle Karami: funny i saw both Whitney Houston and Jennifer Lopez camping at Sterling Pointe around Christmas...
Benjamin Noble: First, it's 100% voluntary - nobody has to, and realistically, there's no way we'd ever be able to limit the organization that way anyway.
Theophan Paine: Hey Gucci goes against someone selling one fake bag on eBay, they will be here soon for people stealing their IP rights on sl.
Gelf Yalin: I think the verification is a good idea and I like the simplicty of your system
Benjamin Noble: But some people have said they really *want* somebody to verify their credentials.
Rhyder Thibaud: is there any issue of keeping the list and the database confidential. you are talking about relating an in world name to a real world bar number, name, firm, etc.
Gelf Yalin: would the credential just say you are a RL attorney? Or would it say the jurisdictions?
Benjamin Noble: As for foreign attorneys, I don't want to keep you out, at all. I think we'd be able to verify jurisdictions pretty easily. That said, I'd not be surprised if somebody starts an EU law association too.
Jessica Holyoke: and there's the issue of succession, if I spelled that correctly. Who gets to transfer the records?
Sorek Tomsen wipes his brow.
Benjamin Noble: Jurisdictions, I'd thinl.
Theophan Paine: I think the certification will need sufficent disclaimers to shield the SLBA.
Benjamin Noble: I picture "SLBA Verified Attorney - CA, NJ"
Benjamin Noble: As a title, or whatever.
von Neumann: I don't think that Gucchi will be here until remuneration (potential) reaches the 5-figure range. IRL litigation is expensive.
Wendell Holmer: What is the value of a credential that says you are an attorney?
von Neumann: And, who do you sue?
Benjamin Noble: Some people practice here.
Wendell Holmer: anyone who gives legal advice in sl is nuts.
Jessica Holyoke: yes they do.
Benjamin Noble: Incidentally, how many of you do? How many are seeking clients here.
Sorek Tomsen: Pratice ... what does that mean in this context?
Wendell Holmer: Ooops.
Benjamin Noble: I'm not, but only b/c I'm on sabbaticaly.
Rhyder Thibaud: more like 6 figure, a trial at that level eats 10k a day easy.
Theophan Paine: I am not, just general goodwill.
Benjamin Noble: Let's say you talk to a client in this forum, or advertise yourself as an attorney.
Sorek Tomsen: But do you give advice on line?
Rebecca Berkman: von Neuman, Harvard university contacted me about someone giving away harvard t-shirts in-world. As soon as they heard about it, they called me....
Benjamin Noble: My take on it is it's fine, as long as you treat it like pretty email. Know who you're talking to, what the deal is, etc.
Sorek Tomsen: Or do you set up meetings in 1L?
Jessica Holyoke: well, I've been looking at the practice of law in SL as the giving of legal advice to in world residents for in world issues. Not counting people who use SL as a form of web advertising
Wendell Holmer: and give legal advice to a resident of a state where you are not licensed...
Zuling Zhaoying: I think this distorts that real world verification should, at most, be required for members who want to represent clients dealign with real world issues. Otherwise we start to destroy too much of what SL is all about -- anonymity and separate identity are a big part of it, in my opinion.
Benjamin Noble: Rebecca - want to do a pro bono case for them? I'm half serious - I'd like to try out the subpoena process. I was thinking of finding a Red Cross infringer or something.
von Neumann: Rebecca, what action is possible in a case like that?
Gelf Yalin: I think there is a lot of value to such a credentialso that people can see that you have some experience
Theophan Paine: I do a lot of practice on the telephone, via fax, email etc., I don't see why sl is any different.
Benjamin Noble: You subpoena LL for the name of whoever is selling them, send a cease and desist letter, and sue if they don't.
Rhyder Thibaud: each state has its own rules about advertising. If we do solicit business in this world, whose servers are in California, significant issues are involved. Having malpractice and E&O coverage implications.
Benjamin Noble: Just like they were selling them on the street corner.
Sorek Tomsen: ONly because you met the CL on line, talk to them on line, etc...they could live or have COA's outside your license area.
Jessica Holyoke: And there are also servers in Northern Texas, that colors things as well
Theophan Paine: I heard there are also overseas servers going up as well.
Wendell Holmer: So LL becomes, in fact, an enforcer of copyrights?
Benjamin Noble nods. But if you're suing in federal court...
Benjamin Noble: It's a bit easier.
Jessica Holyoke: if you can prove diversity
Jessica Holyoke: maybe.
Jessica Holyoke: I hated civ pro
Rhyder Thibaud: or fed subj mtr jurisdiction
Benjamin Noble: Not really - LL just answers the subpoena (which they have to). It's *your* job to enforce the trademark.
Rebecca Berkman: It's a trademark violation. No subpoena necessary. I knew the person doing it. She gave the t-shirts to me and we are giving them away from our island so Harvard is not condoning an unauthorized use. They were just worried about losing the ability to sue in the future.
von Neumann: Benjamin, the average experienced user can create a new av, and transfer the T-Shirt business in about an hour.
Theophan Paine: You can always sue for copyright in federal court, it is a fed jurisdiction.
Jessica Holyoke nods with Rhyder
Benjamin Noble: Good solution, it sounds like.
Benjamin Noble: But I'd like to see how hard it is to get a name out of LL sometime.
Wendell Holmer: That's my questino.
Sorek Tomsen: Like squeezing turnips
Rhyder Thibaud: I want a free harvard T! it's my 25 reunion year, i'd love an SL pic.
Wendell Holmer: People want anonymity.
Jessica Holyoke: Assuming who ever created the account used a real name and identifying information
Benjamin Noble: von, you'd know the real name if you did this right, and credit card info, etc. Could get an injunction against them every having another AV.
Zuling Zhaoying: i agree with Wendell.
Benjamin Noble nods.
Wendell Holmer: Imagine the fun the divorce bar will have if they can subpoena people's identities.
Rhyder Thibaud: I think a lotof in world actions are predicated on anonymity.
Benjamin Noble: It *will* happen that the anonymity gets cracked.
Jessica Holyoke: agreed Rhyder
Benjamin Noble: My guess? A child abduction case.
Sorek Tomsen nods
Rhyder Thibaud: mucho gratias Rebecca.
Sorek Tomsen: Emotional.
Theophan Paine: If someone wants anonymity here there are ways to get it, disposible credit card numbers work here I beleive.
von Neumann: Benjamin, I'm not aware of any restriction on the Xfer of Lindens. Real names can be masked by using cut-outs.
Jessica Holyoke: how would you link that though Benjamin?
Rebecca Berkman: I maintain multiple avs. One attached to my RL identity. (This one). I think many will do this going forward as more professional activity takes place in world.
von Neumann: Also, don't get me started on IRL credit cards and identity theft.
Benjamin Noble: Somebody's going to get in trouble for something bad with a kid, and LL will give up the info in a heartbeat because of the potential bad press.
Sorek Tomsen: (IRL?)
Wendell Holmer: yes, Benjamin. That will be the case that does it.
Benjamin Noble: But yeah, I think we all agree that anonymity is there, but it's going to be challenged, and in at least some cases, it's going to fail.
von Neumann: In Real Life.
von Neumann: AKA in RL.
Rhyder Thibaud: I think if there is a real chance to get real world money, people will want to be indentifiable. Our service is one of the few where personality and individual credibility matter.
Sorek Tomsen: ty
Theophan Paine: Yes, that is why they are taking steps against things like casinos and ageplay.
Benjamin Noble: But there are ways to hide, for sure, I just suspect most people making Gucci bags haven't bothered.
Rebecca Berkman: I'm interested in the idea of an in-world dispute resolution process. is tehre going to be a committee to design such a process and think about implementation options?
Benjamin Noble: Same with ebay, you know, and they track those guys down all the time.
Benjamin Noble: Yes, Rebecca.
Wendell Holmer: And it hasn't ruined eBay.
Raychel Slade: I agree. ADR is the way to go.
Benjamin Noble: So of this, I hear a few things...
Jessica Holyoke: what about the present systems though? Should the bar association have its own mediators and arbitrators?
Wendell Holmer: How do you enforce an arbitrator's decision?
Rhyder Thibaud: We have one in a series of sims i'm on, We have a list of selected arbitators. Assume a binary dispute between sims, each picks one off the list, they pick a third and there is a tribunal. Problem is, no case law, no commmon law, no codified law.
Jessica Holyoke: I know SL mediators used an escrow like system
Wendell Holmer: Would the parties have to give up their RL identities and sign an arbitration agreement?
Rebecca Berkman: Wendell, I think there are several options for how we might think about that.
Zuling Zhaoying: the question is not whether anonymity will be cracked in some contexts, but how the bar should handle the issue with respect to its own membership. right? or am i missing something
Benjamin Noble: Two possibilities - escrow (with "liquidated damages") is one good idea.
Jessica Holyoke: I think somehow we moved from credentialling
Theophan Paine: ->Wendell, most court systems enforce arbitration agreements by converting the arb decision into a judgment.
Wendell Holmer: You've given this some thought...
Benjamin Noble: e.g. - the parties agree that in the event of a breach, X get's Y's $10000 lindens, or whatever.
Benjamin Noble: And the 10000L are kept by a third party, trusted.
Wendell Holmer: Of course, Theophan. But there are no courts here.
Benjamin Noble: Who follows the mediator's direction.
Wendell Holmer: I like the escrow idea.
Benjamin Noble: We've moved off topic. I should be more formal, but this is fun.
Rebecca Berkman: Escrow works for contract disputes.
Auction Hammerer: Virtual Constitution
Sorek Tomsen: But will "litigants"
Theophan Paine: --> Wendell, I already said this is not a jurisdiction, of course the contract would require real life disclosures to be enforceable there.
Wendell Holmer: Ok, so we agree.
Benjamin Noble: OKAY - one sec, everybody. Just so this doesn't get frustrating for folks.
Benjamin Noble: Hang on.
Benjamin Noble: I hear three things. Credentialling, arbitration/justice system, and lobbying linden lab.
Rhyder Thibaud: see, we ultimately devolve from chaos to resolve into order.
Benjamin Noble: Are those the big three that we're interested in?
Jessica Holyoke: who said lobbying?
Zuling Zhaoying: Theophan: unless they were enforced by some higher authority, such as Linden or the server running the sim, which could still protect anonymity
Benjamin Noble laughs.
Benjamin Noble: I did.
Benjamin Noble: Actually, it's just one way to get a justice system.
von Neumann: Benjamin...those 3 are a good start.
Benjamin Noble: Enforcable contracts of some sort.
Raychel Slade: yes
Benjamin Noble: Unlikely, but something we could do.
Benjamin Noble: Or at least ask about.
Benjamin Noble: Start the dialog.
Benjamin Noble: So those thre are good, at least for now.
Theophan Paine: Zuling, there is no anonymity here, they can track you through your ISP, haven't you ever done that in rl?
Benjamin Noble: How about committees for those - if I put forum topic up, can people join in?
Rhyder Thibaud: I think anonymity is ultimately the individual users responsiblity. caveat emptor, use masked contacts.
Jessica Holyoke: But I access SL through a number of ISP's
von Neumann: Rhyder, I agree.
Sorek Tomsen: [Send directions to the forum, SVP]
Benjamin Noble: Forum topics up for each of those committees.
Benjamin Noble: Good idea, Sorek.
Jessica Holyoke: any one of them could be mine at the moment
Rebecca Berkman: Wait. WHat are the committees? Credentialing? and contract dispute resolution?
Benjamin Noble: Go to http://www.slba.info and follow the link.
Theophan Paine: Zuling, have you ever heard of triangulation?
Benjamin Noble: You have to register, but it's as anonymous as this is. Wink
Rhyder Thibaud lets out a little hiss at the word committee.
Benjamin Noble laughs.
von Neumann: {laughs}
Benjamin Noble: Okay, project teams.
Theophan Paine: Is the SLBA going to have a governing body or just officers?
Rhyder Thibaud: sorry, carry on, blame it on jack and coke.
Sorek Tomsen: [ty...nice pic.]
Benjamin Noble laughs. That's the nice thing about a virtual bar association.
Rebecca Berkman: can you repeat again what the various "prjects" or "committees" are about?
Benjamin Noble: Yes.
Benjamin Noble: Rebecca - one credentialling, one in-world arbitration/justice system.
Rebecca Berkman: great. thanks.
Benjamin Noble: I'd said lobbying, but I think that gets wrapped into in-world arbitration.
Zuling Zhaoying: Theophan: who is "they"? Linden can, I'm sure. But residents?
Benjamin Noble: Actually, I think the third should be Bar Association Operations
Rhyder Thibaud: three lobby linden
Benjamin Noble: A couple quick ideas - a panel of online members so visitors (a surprising number come by) can find us.
Rebecca Berkman: we need something to lobby linden to do before we start lobbying, no?
Benjamin Noble: People are often looking to talk to a pseudo-lawyer.
Theophan Paine: We should have articles of association too, no?
Jessica Holyoke: but would the Lindens actually take action? They seem to want to be more "hands off"
Sorek Tomsen: Panel: good idea.
Benjamin Noble nods, exactly, Rebecca.
Benjamin Noble: I think it'll grow out of the other committee.
Rhyder Thibaud: I think if we present them with a workable vetted idea, they will seriously consider implementation on at least a trial basis. re: in world dispute resolution.
Wendell Holmer: Should we talk about whether we want Linden to creat a justice system or whether there are other ways to enforce contacts?
Benjamin Noble: Incidentally, can anyone script/code here with some skill?
Benjamin Noble: Let's let the project team look at that, Wendell.
Rebecca Berkman: i can (script/code)
Benjamin Noble: Just so we can keep going. I think it'll come out of that.
Sorek Tomsen: Not yet...
Benjamin Noble nods at Rebecca. Cool.
Rebecca Berkman: i also have a lot of interested law students and other students who want to work on law-related projects in-world.
Benjamin Noble: It sounds like you're most interested in the arb/justice system stuff, but ah... students. Wink
Benjamin Noble: Perfect.
Rhyder Thibaud: there you go! get the law students involved.
Jessica Holyoke: hey now
Benjamin Noble: So one idea is a panel in the office - basically an in/out board with contacts so the SLBA can act as a referral center.
Benjamin Noble: Another is office space.
Auction Hammerer: I have a law student group
Benjamin Noble: I'd really like us to provide nice *private* meeting space for those of you seeking clients.
Benjamin Noble: who do not have an office yet, or don't want one.
Rose Springvale: Jeremy and i built an office with skybox conference space
Rose Springvale: we are willing to share
Rhyder Thibaud: I'd like to also suggest a pro bono option with pointers for land lord tenant and family law and immigration issues.
Sorek Tomsen: Just so I understand, you are talking about accredation of in-world attorneys to handle disputes between 2L residents over L$.
Benjamin Noble: Excellent idea, Rhyder. Totally.
Benjamin Noble: Sorek - verifying credentials only, no further accreditation. And it's up to you to make sure you comply with your state bar rules.
Rose Springvale: in world family, L/t and immigration?
Rhyder Thibaud: volume and flow through will bring pecuniary results. freebies bring real world dough because you do the right thing.
Rhyder Thibaud: no no, real world law.
Jessica Holyoke: Wouldn't the pro bono option be a little too wide open if it covers all immigration and other issues?
Benjamin Noble nods. And it's good publicity.
Benjamin Noble: Which, incidentally, we're getting quite a bit of, for those of you who might want to run for office.
Wendell Holmer: Don't tell me there are elected officials here?
Benjamin Noble: I did an hour interview with a guy from Financial Times today, and the ABA Journal article was cool, even if she got the name of the organiation wrong.
Theophan Paine: Are you going to run Ben, you are the Founder?
Benjamin Noble: Wendell - I'm appointed (by myself) but we'll elect people shortly.
Sorek Tomsen: Sorry for being lame...run for office of what?
Benjamin Noble: I'm considering myself president through the end of June.
Sorek Tomsen: SLBA?
Benjamin Noble: We'll electe a "president-elect" who will take over then.
Rhyder Thibaud: it is like what the BASF does (bar assoc of San Fran) they have atty meet with poor folks, in take. then it gets distributed. It would be point of contact, info. not legal advice or entry into atty client relationship.
Benjamin Noble: SLBA, yes.
Sorek Tomsen gives a sheepish grin
Theophan Paine: Yes, are you going to run for the elected position Ben?
Jessica Holyoke: ok, I like Rhyder's idea better
Benjamin Noble: Rhyder - you feel like being active in a pro bono committee?
Benjamin Noble: Theo - I'll step down as president. I'll run for something if nobody steps into it, but I'd rather be "Founder" and leave it at that. Let this go where it wants to.
Rhyder Thibaud: sure. I volunteered for the corps, this is easier than parris. I'm in.
Rose Springvale: Houston does that too... we have set hours for telephonee conferencing for pr o bono
Benjamin Noble: Maybe I'd be VP Operations or something, to keep the websites up. Wink
Theophan Paine: Bar Associations should only give referrals, also to mediators and arbitrators.
Theophan Paine nods at Ben.
Benjamin Noble: Theo - sounds good.
Theophan Paine: We'll need a portrait of you to put in the offices.
Benjamin Noble: Do we have anybody who is a RL mediator or arbitrator or judge here (who wants to identify?)
Benjamin Noble grins.
Wendell Holmer: I do conciliations
Rhyder Thibaud: one thing, if the referrals do begin to make money, realize, attorneys will come on it like sharks on blooded waters. It would be best to do meet and greet and then take it off world to retain control.
Benjamin Noble: It's got to be an old fashioned one, sepia toned.
Theophan Paine: I do small claims arbitrations, up to $5,000.
Sorek Tomsen: Not yet.
Benjamin Noble: True, Rhyder. But at least so far, people are charging a few bucks to meet with clients (1000-5000 linden).
Benjamin Noble: But it could see it happening, especially if TM enforcement gets big, or something like that.
Benjamin Noble: Well, we're not for profit, as I see it.
Jessica Holyoke: well some firms are charging RL $ for services
Rhyder Thibaud: Ben, may I be familiar? The agenda mentioned money input. So it is for like to obtain a listing?
Benjamin Noble: Yes.
Sorek Tomsen: As someone said, this is just another form of communications.
Benjamin Noble: I was just going to say... speaking of money.
Theophan Paine: Yes, if they are using SL like an advertising service, they could charge RL$.
Zuling Zhaoying: are we talking about give real world legal advice? I thought the point of this organization was to help resolve SL disputes?
Benjamin Noble: I'm considering putting a member fee on this, for *new* members (grandfathering everybody in through now).
Benjamin Noble: We need some cash, for rent of the land for an office, if nothing else.
Rhyder Thibaud: they are same same, folks, right? L is convertable to cashola.
Benjamin Noble: I don't really care - it
Sorek Tomsen: How many members are there?
Jessica Holyoke: I've seen the SLBA group used to refer RL legal issues
Benjamin Noble: It isn't that much - but it'd be nice to be self-sustaining anyway.
Benjamin Noble: 140
Benjamin Noble: 140 members.
Rhyder Thibaud: we need to seed it for sure. nothing is free.
Benjamin Noble: A lot are part of the 5.9m citizens you never see though, I expect.
Rose Springvale: You want a motion Mr President?
Benjamin Noble grins.
Rebecca Berkman: How much are you thinking of for fees?
Benjamin Noble: Yes, that'd be great.
Benjamin Noble: There's another law association out there that charges $250.
Benjamin Noble: I figure people can come up with that.
Rhyder Thibaud: bar dues. my firm will not pay these. but, it may be deductible.
Sorek Tomsen: I'd gladly pay a fee if I could meet clients somehow!!
Rose Springvale: I move that the SLBA charger a member ship fee to offsett costs and propose $500 L
Benjamin Noble nods.
Theophan Paine: Are we talking about a monthly or yearly fee?
Benjamin Noble: Is there a second?
Raychel Slade: yup
Yvette Quijote: second
Rose Springvale: (sorry for typos. lag)
Rebecca Berkman: what is the other association? would it beneficial to consolidate with them?
Benjamin Noble: Yearly.
Benjamin Noble: They aren't really doing anything, as far as I can tell.
Theophan Paine: I move the question.
Benjamin Noble: I am forgetting the name, actually.
Rhyder Thibaud: how much we talking?
Benjamin Noble: The question has been moved.
Benjamin Noble: All in favor of Rose's motion, say aye.
Sorek Tomsen: Aye.
Rose Springvale: aye
Wendell Holmer: aye
Yvette Quijote: aye
Strange Ranger: Aye
von Neumann: Abstain.
Rebecca Berkman: abstain
Raychel Slade: aye
BillyT Coakes: Does that motion include the grandfathering? . . . aye
Jessica Holyoke: nay
Jeremy Utarid: aye
Rhyder Thibaud: nolo contendre
Theophan Paine: ay,ay, aye.
Auction Hammerer: abstain
Sorek Tomsen: [Remember l$500 is like $.05 US.
Gelf Yalin: aye
Sorek Tomsen: $.5
Rhyder Thibaud: lifetime for 500 L?
Wendell Holmer: Closer to $2
Theophan Paine: It is more like $2US.
Jessica Holyoke: 500 is US $2
Strange Ranger: $2.06, actually.
Sorek Tomsen: [Oh bad math]
Benjamin Noble: Right, $2.06. And yes, everyone is grandfathered until next year (and I don't even think yearly dues work yet).
Rhyder Thibaud: so the floored motion is 500 L for a one year membership in SLBA?
Benjamin Noble: If you haven't voted, please do. I heard some nay's and abstentions. Yes, $500L year membership in SLBA.
Wendell Holmer: Did we vote on grandfathering?
Wendell Holmer: I don't think that was in the motion.
Benjamin Noble: Starting one year from today for everyone who is already a member, and for all new members, on the date they become members.
Rhyder Thibaud: Ok, who do I pay? I will not gain say. I say yae, not nay.
Wendell Holmer: But don't we need money now?
Benjamin Noble shakes his head.
Benjamin Noble: Rhyme?
Rose Springvale: I'd be willing to donat to a start up fund
Sorek Tomsen: Solicit new members.
Auction Hammerer: discount for students?
Theophan Paine: If you set the dues at $500L, people can resign and pay by joining again.
Rhyder Thibaud: but we will have some elected oversite team cum committee, right?
Jessica Holyoke: but how would you prove that Auction
Theophan Paine: You should also have a tip jar in the office for contributions.
Benjamin Noble: Rhyder - we will. I'm thinking a VP of Finance.
BillyT Coakes: No promises but my firm may be willing to make a contribution
Auction Hammerer: i would verify
Benjamin Noble: I'm nixing the tip jar during my administration.
Rose Springvale: I think .. yes
Rhyder Thibaud: let's make it 500 for RL atty, and a lesser sum for students in a recognized, not necessarily ABA accredeited law school.
Benjamin Noble: And the pole.
Rhyder Thibaud: and have some other type lesser membership for other who are interested
Rose Springvale: associate memberships
Yvette Quijote: same voting rights?
Benjamin Noble: Okay - here's the deal.
Benjamin Noble: We're going to nail this down, then vote again.
Sorek Tomsen: Go fo ti
Sorek Tomsen: for
Sorek Tomsen: it
Rhyder Thibaud: very good example of inworld dynamic positive feed back system.
Benjamin Noble: I move this: $500L/year, grandfather in everyone who is currently a member until 1 year from today, for a full membership. No discounts. Even law students have two bucks.
Auction Hammerer: same rights?
BillyT Coakes: I second
Wendell Holmer: I'll second that for discussion.
Benjamin Noble: All get the same rights.
Sorek Tomsen seconds
Benjamin Noble: Discussion?
Theophan Paine: I move the question.
Jessica Holyoke: point of order: how do you measure tenure in the organization?
Wendell Holmer: Some people don't have premium accounts or credit cards, and it may be hard to make the Ls
Benjamin Noble: I have dates of joining for everybody, but we'll just count all members as of today from today.
Benjamin Noble: We'll take a collection yearly for hard up members.
Wendell Holmer: OK.
Rhyder Thibaud: you do not need a premium to fund in world, only a debit account.
Rhyder Thibaud: or rich friends
Sorek Tomsen: Let's vote.
Benjamin Noble: The question has been called but I want to make sure everyone has had a chance to get done whatever they were typing.
Benjamin Noble: Anybody?
Benjamin Noble: Okay. It's to a vote.
Rhyder Thibaud: aye.
Sorek Tomsen: Aye
Benjamin Noble: All in favor, say aye.
Wendell Holmer: aye
Rose Springvale: aye
Strange Ranger: Aye
Yvette Quijote: aye
BillyT Coakes: aye
Auction Hammerer: aye
Theophan Paine: aye.
Rhett Whitfield: aye
von Neumann: aye
Raychel Slade: aye
Pelanor Eldrich: aye, yi, yi yi, pedro gonzales!
Rebecca Berkman: abstain
Dex Debevec: aye - good evening rhett!
Jessica Holyoke: aye
Benjamin Noble: Nays?
Benjamin Noble: And Abstentions?
Gelf Yalin: aye
Rebecca Berkman abstains
Rhyder Thibaud: unanimoty. it would make a prosecutor's heart beat. Bah! I typed too soon.
Benjamin Noble: Okay.
Benjamin Noble: The motion passes.
von Neumann: Do we have quorum? Do we need quorum?
Benjamin Noble: We have quorum.
Rhyder Thibaud: omg, we are using Roberts rules. how quaint.
Benjamin Noble: We have liberal quorum rules due to the giant number of defunct member accounts that plague SL.
Rose Springvale: lol
Wendell Holmer: afk
Benjamin Noble: We're using Benjamin's rules. Much like Robert's, but somewhat more open to interpretation.
Sorek Tomsen: And more fun.
Benjamin Noble grins.
Pelanor Eldrich: like GAAP
Sorek Tomsen grins
Yvette Quijote: lol
Benjamin Noble: Okay, one thing that probably requires discussion is this: elections.
Jessica Holyoke smiles
Rhyder Thibaud: it's good there was one abstention, unanimoty implies perfection. we are evolving.
von Neumann: Hear, hear.
Sorek Tomsen: Via email.
Benjamin Noble: I see project teams being basically organic - no elections needed.
Benjamin Noble: We need a president, somebody responsible for money, and somebody responsible for communication, as I see it.
Rebecca Berkman: should we organize those (project teams) on the forums?
Theophan Paine: I previously asked about a governing body besides officers, was that questions answered?
Benjamin Noble: Yes, Rebecca.
Benjamin Noble: On the forums.
Benjamin Noble: I'll set up forums for each after I go through the tscript tonight.
Benjamin Noble: They should be there by the morning, and I'll send an announcement.
Rhyder Thibaud: there may also be interest in subcommittees, IP, litigation, etc.
Rose Springvale: Ben will y ou p ost the log of this meeting as well?
Benjamin Noble: Theo - not sure I understand.
Benjamin Noble: Can you ask again?
Benjamin Noble: Yes, Rose.
Rose Springvale: thanks
Benjamin Noble: We'll post the transcript.
BillyT Coakes: I also like the subcommittees idea.
Rebecca Berkman: btw/ it violates SL rules to post transcripts without consent from all participants. we should make consent to that a condition of membership or meeting attendance or something.
Theophan Paine: Yes, usually associations have some kind of governing body, trustees, etc. or is it your intention that the elected officers serve as the fiduciaries?
Benjamin Noble: And sorry for shortening your name to Theo if you don't like that, Theophan, it's just so easy.
Rhyder Thibaud: I consent to having any thing I said in chat transcribed.
Benjamin Noble: Good question.
Theophan Paine: Ben, that is fine, call me Theo or even Ted, if you like.
Dex Debevec: It might be worth putting an open discussion forum on the topic of organization, allowing members, including those not present, to provide ideas and feedback on structure of SBLA.
Benjamin Noble: I hadn't thought about it.
Pelanor Eldrich: That's a good point Rebecca. In the CDS we have recorders that require a consenting "touch" to activate.
Raychel Slade: i consent to whatever.
Rhyder Thibaud: that is a good idea Dex.
Benjamin Noble: That is a good point too, Pelanor and Rebecca.
Rose Springvale: particularly given time zones
Dex Debevec: At the moment, this "forum" may be difficult for some not familiar to follow and participate.
Zuling Zhaoying: I have to get going now folks. It's been a pleasure meeting everyone.
Benjamin Noble: Let me ask - does anyone object to putting this transcript up?
Rhyder Thibaud: we need a walk through for those who in world participate so you go in and push ok to transcribe. else you can't pass.
Benjamin Noble: I should have asked before. I can edit out your stuff if you do.
Rebecca Berkman: nay
Jessica Holyoke: I consent
Benjamin Noble: So it's okay with you if I put it up, Rebecca - just making sure I don't have a negative reversed.
Theophan Paine: No problem, I consent.
Benjamin Noble: Anyone *object?*
Sorek Tomsen: Bye Zuling
Sorek Tomsen: No objections
Rhyder Thibaud: they can veto their input, but not others.
Rebecca Berkman: I consent. I'm all for openness all the time!
Benjamin Noble: Right.
Gelf Yalin: I consent
Raychel Slade: i consent
Benjamin Noble: Okay - we'll do that before the meetings going forward.
von Neumann: Can you redact my IRL name?
Benjamin Noble: Yes, von Neumann.
BillyT Coakes: I consent
Benjamin Noble: I will.
von Neumann: TY
Pelanor Eldrich: I consent
Benjamin Noble: Okay, so how about we table elections until we've had a chance to hash it out in the forums, with everyone who wasn't here.
Rhyder Thibaud: speak now to quelch your speech or forever be heard.
Dex Debevec: I agree. Great idea Benjamin.
Benjamin Noble: The idea of an executive committee (former officers, perhaps) is appealing.
Wendell Holmer: I'
Wendell Holmer: I'd prefer not to be quoted.
Benjamin Noble: As is getting other people's input.
Strange Ranger is Offline
Benjamin Noble: Wendell - I can edit you out if you want, but let's talk offline if there's something in particular.
Rhyder Thibaud: so noted.
Wendell Holmer: ok
Theophan Paine: You should be on the executive committee as the Founder Ben, at least for the first year.
BillyT Coakes: Agree with tabling elections to allow for forum comment. Us on the east coast need to go to bed soon.
Benjamin Noble nods.
Jessica Holyoke: Bed? I've heard of that
Sorek Tomsen: And its dinnertime.
Benjamin Noble: I like the idea - it keeps me (and other former officers) active, which I find is critical for organizations to make it. Long term participation, tradition, etc.
Rhyder Thibaud: Ben, you really ought to have a lifetime membership on exec comm for getting it off the ground.
Sorek Tomsen: [Bed = good.]
Benjamin Noble: Anyway, let's table it and hash it out in the forums.
Sorek Tomsen: I move Ben has a lifetime membership.
Rose Springvale: second
Benjamin Noble: So that actually, for a bit of a chaotic meeting, covers everything.
Pelanor Eldrich: I like my hash on the table in the forum.
Rhyder Thibaud: omg, we used to begin rounds at the hong kong at 11 pm
Wendell Holmer: afk
Rhyder Thibaud: second
Benjamin Noble employs Benjamin's Rules to table that one to the forums too.
Rose Springvale: lol
Rebecca Berkman: Nice job running hte meeting. Thanks for letting us go free-form a bit. I think that works better in SL for discussions so it isn't too slow and boring.
von Neumann: Heh.
Benjamin Noble: Agreed, Rebecca, and thanks.
Sorek Tomsen: Ok, Ben, but its gonna pass.
von Neumann: Indeed. Good job.
Rhyder Thibaud: move to consider adjorning.
Jessica Holyoke claps for Ben "Yay"
Benjamin Noble: If anyone wants to, feel free to drop by the offices. I'll be around for a bit, and we can chat.
Rose Springvale: Ben, if we want to contribute to start up, do we just pay you?
Gelf Yalin: nice job Ben
Dex Debevec: done been considered
Benjamin Noble: Sure, Rose.
Sorek Tomsen claps ben on the back.
Benjamin Noble: I'll keep records until we get a financial person.
Benjamin Noble: That'd be great.
Rose Springvale: thanks for getting things going
Benjamin Noble: Thanks, everybody.
Rhett Whitfield: Thanks Ben
Pelanor Eldrich: Thanks Ben.
Benjamin Noble: This has been a good meeting. You all participating is what did it.
Meeting adjourned.