Second Life Bar Association MeetingOctober 20, 2007
Transcript
Benjamin Noble: I'm going to get us started, to keep us somewhat on schedule, since we've got a lot to get through.
Benjamin Noble: First, welcome. I know a few more people are coming. Jessica, could you ping the group a couple times over the next few minutes and offert teleports like you were?
Benjamin Noble: Since we can't distribute the landmark this morning, we'll do it that way.
Benjamin Noble: Of course, this is our second meeting in this space.
Benjamin Noble: But if you haven't been here before, welcome!
Benjamin Noble: First, I want to remind everybody that we put transcripts of the meeting online.
Benjamin Noble: Second, we have a member of the press here today. Manda Moran.
Benjamin Noble: She's going to be taking a few pictures (screenshots) of the meeting.
Manda Moran: hello everyone
Benjamin Noble: If you don't want to be in the pictures, let her know.
Benjamin Noble: Who are you with, Manda?
Manda Moran: i'm an editor at
Benjamin Noble nods.
Benjamin Noble: It's a slick magazine, with good distribution. We're happy you're dropping in, Manda.
Manda Moran: thanks for having me
Benjamin Noble: Okay, first up, Gwyneth Llewelyn, who graciously postponed this last month, is going to talk briefly about ADR in Second Life via the e-Justice center.
Benjamin Noble: Please join me in welcoming Gwyneth, to whom I'll turn over the floor.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: let's hope the slide show thingy cooperates :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good morning/afternoon all!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is a presentation I usually give to people that ahve never heard about ADR
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Due to the type of audience we have,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll skip the first slides
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And go straight to the way the eJustice Centre, set up by the Portuguese Ministry of Justice in SL, works.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: As you might imagine,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: this is an escrow-based system
Gwyneth Llewelyn: slow in rezzing, lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm not sure if you get this one...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There have been several attempts to do some sort of ADR in SL in the past
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and there are several going on right now.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you caught it from LL's blog recently,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: they have 'partnered' with two RL ADR centres recently
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I believe it was two...)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: to solve disputes up to US$15k if my memory doesn't fail me.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why use *RL* centres*?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The slide shows a few reasons why the SL-based, volunteer-run operations *usually* fail.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thus, the solution: guaranteeing, as far as possible,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that there is a neutral organisation behind the operation
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and that it's not just "volunteers" but professionals
Jai Baxter: (ahem) we are getting the slides, by the way - and I do have a Q, but will save until the end
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that are available when they're needed, and not at a whim (or when they have some spare time)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sure Jai!)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So this was the eJustice Centre designed by the Portuguese Ministry of Justice, launched officially on July 27th this year.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's a joint operation
Gwyneth Llewelyn: building/programming is done by a techy local university,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: staffing is coordinated by the New
University of Lisbon's
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and uses professors in law -with RL experience, not only academic one -as overseers
Gwyneth Llewelyn: as well as students of law
Gwyneth Llewelyn: who are completing their courses and require some training in ADR too as part of their studies
Gwyneth Llewelyn: However,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and, also, some employees from the Ministry of Justice that are part of the staff of RL ADR centres.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: this is an international ADR centre
Gwyneth Llewelyn: for SL only (for now!)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It provides mediation, mediation-followed-by-arbitration, or arbitration directly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: A short review on the procedures...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: BTW the island's name is very original it's called "eJustice Centre" :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: information there is bilingual, English/Portuguese
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (trivia: English is spoken by 40% of all residents as their native language; Portuguese is the 2nd language, with 10% native speakers)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So how does it work? Briefly,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the resident with a complaint comes to the island,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: drops a notecard in a special device
Gwyneth Llewelyn: this gets read and sent to a web-side system
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a process number is assigned.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (the notecard has a "template" for a form)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no RL data is revealed -this is strictly left for SL -even email address is optional!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can also attach further elements to the request,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ie. more notecards, textures, objects, emails... whatever
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then the eJustice Centre's staff will try to get in touch with the other party,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and convince them to come to a mediation meeting.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If they agree,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the meeting is arranged
Gwyneth Llewelyn: an escrow is established
Gwyneth Llewelyn: both parties deposit the amount
Spokesman Salomon: an escrow is a deposit, is it?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and at the appointed date, a mediator will sit down with both and try to help them out to settle their differences.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If all goes well,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: there might be a final agreement
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and the escrow is given to the winning party.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: if an agreement cannot be made,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: there is still the option of going for arbitration.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (remember, the money is still held in escrow!)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so this time another meeting is arranged with a panel of judges
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Both parties will now be presented in front of the panel,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and will be able to tell their side of the issue, bring witnesses, etc.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This time, however, the panel of judges will make a decision on how the escrow is to be distributed, and the decision is final.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is the overview,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: if you pop over the island, there is a lot of documentation there on notecards, as well as all the procedures in detail
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And there is a companion website (also bilingual) at http://www.ejusticecentre.mj.pt/
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think we can still open the floor for a few questions :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you :)
Benjamin Noble: We have a few minutes, yes. If you'll take questions, I'm sure there are a few. Thank you!
Jai Baxter: This sounds very much like the classic "instructional legal clinic" used in many law schools, but with an SL focus. Could I see that second slide of yours again, please?
Benjamin Noble: Also, if there is interest, Gwyneth is willing to meet with a few of us later this month for a more detailed discussion.
Gwyneth Llewelyn tries to go back
Juris Amat: How is the panel of judges selected?
Jai Baxter: well let's forge on either way :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes -btw, I should warn you that I'm not trained in legal matters, but I'll be very happy to set up a separate meeting with Mariana Hastings (avatar name), professor of the New University of Lisbon,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and she'll be able to tell you way more than me :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The panel of judges is selected by the team supervising the eJustice Centre,
Jai Baxter: Ah yes. You said most native SL efforts had failed. That's interesting. Many SL residents tend to favor doing business with native supplies (say Blaze) versus external ones (say American Apparel). So that's a serious assertion. Is there some basis for it? What might we as lawyers look at to judge for ourselves whether there were prior native efforts, and whether they failed? Hm, for that matter, what's "failure" or success" here?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ie. depending on the case (how serious and complex) it might be a group of RL mediators, professors, or students
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jai,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: these were historical cases
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was part, at a time, of five separate attempts, over the years
Jai Baxter: It was that "SL methods have failed" bit I was looking for in the prior slide - but maybe I misread?
Jessica Holyoke: Actually, I know of SL Mediators, but I don't know of a controversy they resolved
Gwyneth Llewelyn: of setting up different mediation/arbitration mechanisms
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jessica, they did -2 or 3, if I remember correctly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: at least 2 or 3!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Is this the slide, Jai?
Jai Baxter: Well the metrics issue is interesting to me - if we are to refer to a given mediation solution, how to we acquire info about its, er , outcomes?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The reasons I've pointed out are the ones why these groups have 'failed' ...
Jai Baxter: hm - one forward, please? and thanks!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok!
Jai Baxter: theye we are
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So far, these past groups (except for one, the SL Chamber of Commerce Incubator) did not even have companion websites
Jai Baxter: thank so much - so back to the metrics! Room full of lawyers ... here's the Q: how should we assess and eval such efforts, going forward?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and didn't publish any 'results'... the comments were made in in-world meetings
Jai Baxter: ah published results
Jai Baxter: that might well be a key issue - the EJ people plan to do so?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes :)
Jai Baxter: No participant confidentiality issues?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed there are.
Jai Baxter: ha ha maybe I better attend that meeting with the professor :) sorry Gwyneth
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mariana is still figuring out the amount of data that can be safely released
Jamie Palisades: Hi Gwyn. As I recall there was an opening reception for the EJ Centrethat I tried to attend, but they got rolling-restarted, sigh. Any reschedule planned?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes indeed -feel also free to IM her, btw :) )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw Jamie -(and hi, btw) -we did about 15 presentations in August and September. There is none planned for the next weeks, but, as promised to Ben,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we'll certainly set up a "special event" for the SLBA if there is interest.
Jamie Palisades: excellent, thanx
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are also a few RL events too,
Jamie Palisades: lecture circuits getting tough! :) 15! sigh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: twice it was presented at European e-Justice conferences
Benjamin Noble nods. I think we'd like that a lot, Gwyn.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok -just let me know when would be a good date, and I'd be happy to get that on. It takes about an hour (depending on the amount of questions!!)
Benjamin Noble: Thanks a lot, Gwyneth. I have to wrap this up, unfortunately.
Jamie Palisades: If they do onsite events at the EJ site, I'm sue we'd appreciate gettin a notice, Ben - unless it has its own notice group?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you for the opportunity :)
Benjamin Noble: This has been informative, and I know that the members really appreciate you coming by.
Benjamin Noble: We'll schedule a trip out there with you later, and I'll announce it to the group.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the pleasure was all mine -and Jamie, in fact, the presentations were made mostly on several SL communities, announced on the SL events list, and internal groups of those communities.
Benjamin Noble: Next, I'd like to propose a formal motion to thank Bethan Vale for his generous donation of the space for these offices.
Gwyneth Llewelyn applauds the motion of thanks, even if she's not a member of the SLBA ;)
Benjamin Noble: Beathan not only built this and donated the space, but worked to get our area done early (we're the first in here) so we could start using it right away and get out of the fake Hall of Congress that we were meeting in. :) [I should make it clear that Mizou Vavoom actually did the build, Beathan was financially responsible for it though.]
Benjamin Noble: So I move to formally thank Beathan Vale for the generous donation of space for the SLBA.
Benjamin Noble: Is there a second?
Spokesman Salomon: Especially nas that is very American . We're nto all American
Spokesman Salomon: y
Jai Baxter: hear hear
Juris Amat: I second
Colleen Kesey: smiles
Benjamin Noble: Any objection, please stand.
Benjamin Noble: Seeing none, the motion carries unanimously. I will prepare a letter of thanks to Beathan.
Colleen Kesey: thank you
Benjamin Noble: Brief membership update.
Benjamin Noble: We now have 205 members.
Benjamin Noble: Growing at about the same pace.
Benjamin Noble: About 40 of those have not logged in in 90 days.
Benjamin Noble: But for SL, it's a remarkably active group.
Benjamin Noble: Let your attorney friends know about us if they haven't heard.
Benjamin Noble: That leads to the financial update.
Benjamin Noble: We've been collecting dues since late last April.
Benjamin Noble: After buying the internal fixtures for this place, we still have around 14,000 $L in the coffers.
Benjamin Noble: Geri Kuhn (who could not be here today) is our VP of finance.
Benjamin Noble: She has a proposed bylaws amendment that I'm going to tell you about now, and we can discuss a bit, and we'll vote on at the next meeting.
Benjamin Noble: The issue is this: we collecte L$500 in dues when people sign up.
Benjamin Noble: And we have L$500/ year dues that we'll need to collect again in April.
Benjamin Noble: This will also let us cull out inactive members.
Benjamin Noble: But people who sign up in, say, February, should not have to pay $L500, b/c they'll have to pay again at the end of April.
Benjamin Noble: It's a hassle that is just built in to the group system - there is no easy way to pro-rate dues, or even tell when people signed up.
Benjamin Noble: Anyway, Geri proposes the following:
"Our membership year runs from
Benjamin Noble: I'm suggesting we modify that to be May 1 through November 1 to match when we started collecting dues.
Benjamin Noble: Any discussion? Floor is open - we don't need parlimentary prodcedure for this one.
Benjamin Noble: (And note, we'll vote on this at the next meeting)
Spokesman Salomon: What are the subscriptions needed for? It seems a lot.
Benjamin Noble: Well, this year we set up the office. We also use them to pay for a classified advertisiting and "place" listing for the organization.
Benjamin Noble: It's about $2.00 US a year. Also, we do have hardship allowances for AVs who feel they cannot pay.
Benjamin Noble: Okay... I'll put this in the forums too.
Benjamin Noble: We can discuss further there.
Benjamin Noble: /is impressed that we're moving so quickly
and suspects its because everyone on the West Coast of the
Kit Meredith laughs
Benjamin Noble grins. Coffee is in the conference room, incidentally.
Queen Coronet swigs some coffee and sits up straight.
Benjamin Noble: Okay. I want to do a quick update on the Symposium plans.
Benjamin Noble: I'll defer to Jessica if you've got more to add here, since this was your proposal, but I have a couple of notes on it.
Benjamin Noble: First, a little history.
Jessica Holyoke: I'm ok with iving background
Jessica Holyoke: or something better typed
Benjamin Noble: Great. Go ahead, Jessica. You can have the floor.
Jessica Holyoke: Ok, the background is something I should talk about because its my fault
Jai Baxter smiles
Jessica Holyoke: I posted in response to a comment on the Herald about whether or not Linden Labs should absolutely protect Chinese Dissidents if the Chinese Government asks for their personal information
Jessica Holyoke: the main proponent suggested that if Linden Labs did not turn over the information then there would be no consequences
Jessica Holyoke: that the request would be ignored by the government
Jessica Holyoke: which doesn't really make sense
Jessica Holyoke: so the idea of the symposium is to provide information to internet companyies
Jessica Holyoke: what happens if you receive a request from a foreign government for information on your user
Jessica Holyoke: If yousay yes, you might find yourself in Yahoo's position
Jessica Holyoke looks up spelling
Benjamin Noble nods.
Jessica Holyoke: Xiaoning v. Yahoo is the
Benjamin Noble: So to pick the story up there... the SLBA passed a resolution for a fairly-broad based panel that will examine the issue without any particular political perspective.
Benjamin Noble: But from the standpoint of what laws would apply, and what the various consequences would be.
Jessica Holyoke: Because the interplay of international law is complex
Benjamin Noble nods.
Benjamin Noble: So two quick updates.
Jessica Holyoke: just ask the EU consumers
Jessica Holyoke sits back down
Benjamin Noble: After the meeting, I was contacted by one of the leaders of the American Bar Association's Science & Technology Law Section, and they want to co-sponsor the event.
Benjamin Noble: This is really big for us, because -- while perhaps not for this event, as it takes some time to set up -- they are going to help us offer CLE (Continuing Legal Education) credit for these.
Jai Baxter: Hm. Field or Luddy, by any chance?
Colleen Kesey: fabulous
Kit Meredith: That's great, Ben!
Queen Coronet: wow
Benjamin Noble: It also is nice because we get to work with
them, and not against them here. They're excited about what we're doing, and
while the
Gwyneth Llewelyn is thoroughly impressed with the overall idea.
Benjamin Noble smiles.
Manda Moran: what's your timetable for this panel?
Benjamin Noble: The second update is this - I talked to Ginsu Yoon, a Linden Lab's VP.
Benjamin Noble: Good question, Manda. Leave it to the reporter....
Benjamin Noble: I beleive it is tentatively slated for Dec. 4th. I'll have to check the forums...
Jessica Holyoke: that's the date you gave Ben
Jamie Palisades: That's an SL event, still, no?
Benjamin Noble: Yes. Thanks, Jessica.
Benjamin Noble: Yes. A SL event.
Jai Baxter: Just curious - Are there self-identified
Jamie Palisades: thx
Benjamin Noble: Okay, so Linden Lab will very likely send a participant. They're not confirming until we have the rest of the panel in place, but either Ginsu (Gene) or someone from Legal will probably participate.
Solomon Cortes: Is the date fixed? There's a Global IP
Conference here (in
Jessica Holyoke: and during the day might be a problem for some
Benjamin Noble: Jai - there are a couple, one I know is a member. I think he is "Legal Writer" - he is who contacted me.
Benjamin Noble: The date is not fixed.
Manda Moran: FYI i'm interviewing the GC of linden labs on Tues.
Benjamin Noble: He may be participating, or someone else from Legal, or Gene. We're working that out.
Benjamin Noble: Also, I contacted Doug Cassel, who is a
well know international rights professor at Notre Dame. I'm hoping he'll
participate. He co-chairs an
Benjamin Noble: I'd also like to see somebody from EFF (electronic frontier foundation).
Benjamin Noble: If anybody here, or reading the transript, has a contact there, let's talk about that.
Solomon Cortes: I could probably get someone from Human Rights Watch, if that would be of interest.
Benjamin Noble: That would be great, Solomon.
Jai Baxter: I seem to recall we talked last time about balance :)
Juris Amat: smile
Jessica Holyoke: Let me look into balance
Benjamin Noble: We did, Jai. I'd like to see all perspective on this.
Benjamin Noble: Anyway, discussion ongoing in the forums.
Jessica Holyoke nods
Prokofy Neva: I think it would be good if Solomon looked into balance : )
Jai Baxter: aii - sorry Pro, too early in the day Pacific time for that pun
Benjamin Noble: Anyone should feel free to suggest speakers. Right now, we're looking at a professor, an exec from LL, and someone from EFF.
Benjamin Noble: I could easily see one or two more panelists.
Prokofy Neva: Let me know if you need some contacts at Human Right Watch, I worked there for 10 years and collaborate with them frequently.
Benjamin Noble nods.
Prokofy Neva: nods
Prokofy Neva: blinks
Jai Baxter: :) How would you feel about a Chinese internet industry speaker? Someone who's actually walking that tightrope ...
Benjamin Noble: That would be fantastic, Jai.
Benjamin Noble: Last, we'll open voting on the voluntary credential verification system as discussed at the last meeting this week. I expect to have a voting booth in the offices here tomorrow.
Prokofy Neva: How about some actual Chinese dissidents in
exile like from Human Rights in
Prokofy Neva: Sounds like the deck is getting stacked here.
Spokesman Salomon: Speaking more safely for them, how about some dissidents from the former Soviet empire.
Prokofy Neva: You could do that but they don't face quite the same issues as Chinese.
Benjamin Noble: Feel free to suggest speakers. I'm not sure what perspective you think is over-represented, Prokofy, but like I said, feel free to suggest speakers. I'd like to see this be as wide-ranging as possible.
Prokofy Neva: Jessica's perspective is overrepresented by having Jessica be the balancer : )
Spokesman Salomon: If they're walking a tightrope, it might not be a good tyhing to twang it.
Prokofy Neva: Oh, twang away Spokesman, what, are they all so delicate they can't stand up to bullies?
Spokesman Salomon: It's up to them.
Benjamin Noble: Okay. I have to wrap this up, unfortunately, to keep us on schedule as I know we've invited some people to drop in in a few minutes.
Prokofy Neva: Many Chinese users get around the firewall, it isn't the monolith you imagine, and there are people in officialdom who tacitly support them and work quietly, and you undermine them by taking the side of their oppressors, it's not required.
Spokesman Salomon: But the experience of people in eg. Czechland is still comparable.
Benjamin Noble: And they're just coming for the donuts.
Prokofy Neva: Yes it's all useful Spokesman I agree
Benjamin Noble: But discussion can continue in the forums. Please do, in fact.
Colleen Kesey: smiles
Prokofy Neva: and the Russian authorities control the Internet in many ways too
Spokesman Salomon: y
Benjamin Noble: Is there a motion to adjourn to the conference room?
Colleen Kesey: so move
Kit Meredith: Second
Benjamin Noble: Second?
Benjamin Noble nods. Any objection?
Benjamin Noble: (please stand if you object)
Benjamin Noble: Without objection, the motion carries.
Benjamin Noble: We're adjourned.