Second Life Bar Association Meeting
June 9, 2007

Agenda

1) Updates on Projects

2) Election Plan

3) News/Blog Feed for Offices

4) Member Contact Board for Offices

Transcript

Benjamin Noble: Okay - I'm going to call the meeting to order, just to keep us on schedule. We can talk more on the Daniel Linden thing afterward maybe.

[...]

Benjamin Noble: First, I want to let everybody know at the top here that I'll post a transcript afterward, so we're on the record once we start.

Benjamin Noble: Welcome - everybody. Great to see some new faces.

Benjamin Noble: I'll move through this pretty quickly this time since we've got a big agenda.

Benjamin Noble: Feel free to jump in though - last time, we turned it into a bit of a roundtable, and it worked well.

Benjamin Noble: So don't hesitate to talk.

Benjamin Noble: Membership update - we've had 18 more people sign up since the May 18 meeting (where we started imposing dues of L$500).

Benjamin Noble: Also, got L$1500 in contributions from existing members.

Benjamin Noble: So we're at $L10500 right now.

Benjamin Noble: I ran some numbers, and we can afford (and we need) a larger parcel.

Theophan Paine: I noticed that I was receiving payments from people who joined up, is that fixed?

Benjamin Noble: That's fixed.

Benjamin Noble: Feel free to give me the L$3 back if you want to. :-)

Benjamin Noble: Assuming we do 100 dues paying members a year, which seems more than reasonable, we can afford a 1024 plot, which doubles our prim count.

Strange Ranger is Offline

Benjamin Noble: That's important, because the office is maxed, and we have some things we want to install (Cat has some info on this later, as does Henri).

Benjamin Noble: Notably, a contact board for members, and some sort of information portal. Plus, we'd like to put a skybox up for private meetings. 1024 lets us do that.

Benjamin Noble: So we're looking for a plot. Unfortuantely, I don't see anything adjacent to the office right now, and my neighbor keeps trying to buy mine, so one option is to sell it, and find a better location. I'd like to do that.

Cat Galileo: how many prims would we have if we moved?

Benjamin Noble: We ought to be able to get a good price for the parcel, as the neighbor really seems to want it.

Jessica Holyoke: what do you need in teh way of land?

Solomon Cortes: Ben - I might be able to help...

Benjamin Noble: We'll have 234 Prims at the larger parcel.

Benjamin Noble: Solomon?

Solomon Cortes: We're in the process of creating a legal services community on our island, and as you may know, we have some spare space...

Benjamin Noble: Jessica? I know there's land floating around, but one thing I do want to be careful of is conflicts of interest. If we can be self-sustaining, we ought to be. Since we're functionally non-profit though, I suppose we could look at a donation if there's a legal services angle.

Jessica Holyoke: good, just seeing what needed to be done

Solomon Cortes: I could see if we have enough in our premises, like a separate floor, or see if the developers would be willing to find a space...

Benjamin Noble: I'd think it'd need to be a separate building to avoid the apperance of a conflict.

Solomon Cortes: One condition would be that the premises are not used for marketing legal services, but I expect that would be OK, right...?

Benjamin Noble: And we *can* afford something as an organization, so I'm leaning that way, but I'll open a topic on the forum about it.

Henri DeCuir: I'm not entirely sure that there won't be marketting going on in the new office, once a contact board and information portal is set up.

Benjamin Noble: I'm not sure - some members probably do want to at least list themselves as available for fee-based services.

Benjamin Noble nods.

Benjamin Noble: And since we can afford it, it makes sense to get a home of our own, I think.

Gelf Yalin: I think we would be better off in land where we have no restrictions

Cat Galileo: if you want a branch library, though, maybe we can talk Solomon =)

Benjamin Noble: I'll put it in the forums. Maybe we can all keep our eyes open for a good plot. And I'd *love* to find a good builder in the group.

Benjamin Noble: (I'm not - the office is prefab).

Solomon Cortes: I don't think there'd be any problem with discrete notecards, just not using the premises as a virtual office...

Solomon Cortes: Well, if anyone wants to take a look around the space on the park after the meeting sometime, I'd be pleased to show you around

Benjamin Noble: I'd like us to provide office space for client meetings... maybe we can work with your developers though anyway. It's a nice space they did for you guys.

Benjamin Noble: (FYI - for anyone who doesn't know, Solomon is the parter at Field Fisher Waterhouse -- right name? -- who was behind their opening a SL office).

Auction Hammerer is Online

Solomon Cortes: Yes, right name. Thanks Ben

Benjamin Noble nods.

Benjamin Noble: Any other thoughts on the space issue?

Mondrian Lykin: Benjamin, is that about a space with a number of offices which can be rented (or given) to each of the members?

Mondrian Lykin: sorry, first timer here :-)

Avivanoelle Clary: i have the same question

Avivanoelle Clary: also a first-timer

Benjamin Noble: I don't think we can afford that (or want to be land barons) but I'd like us to have a permanent office that's not on my land, and that has space -- probably a skybox as well as a ground office -- for meetings, freely available to members.

Mondrian Lykin: ahm

Mondrian Lykin: I see most of us have their office already

Henri DeCuir: IAt 237 prims, there won't be much of a chance for expansion anyways.

Benjamin Noble: Right. It'll be somewhat bare bones, but should be better than the 117 we currently have. :-)

Wendell Holmer: Is anyone concerned with designating space as a law office to be used by people whose credentials cannot be verified?

Mondrian Lykin: at least, that's my impression from the listings in the search engine

Henri DeCuir: If we put in a lower prim building (yours is in the 60+ range), we can make it happen.

Jessica Holyoke: I think we're covering that later in the agenda

Benjamin Noble: Wendell -- that's a constant issue for me. Even running the organization is a bit of a concern, since some people likely join just to RP lawyers.

Wendell Holmer: Risk of fraud.

Jessica Holyoke: UPL

Avivanoelle Clary: doesn't seem as tho it would be that difficult to check credentials

Wendell Holmer: We can't let ourselves be used that way.

Benjamin Noble: Right on all counts.

Benjamin Noble: Let's jump to the last agenda item, since it ties in with this.

Cat Galileo: We have an agenda item for that right? I have some ideas but don't want to throw us off track

Cat Galileo: ok

Benjamin Noble: We've talked before about this, but I think that the discussions in the forums have given it some momentum now.

Benjamin Noble: As an initial matter, there's simply no way to check every member's credentials, and I don'

Benjamin Noble: and I don't want to exclude non lawyers anyway.

Benjamin Noble: Law students, law librarians, etc. all have a role here, as far as I'm concerned.

Benjamin Noble: Even just people interested in government.

Legal Writer: Could we have a non-lawyers / RP division to SL bar ass'n?

Benjamin Noble: Yes.

Benjamin Noble: Basically, I view "SLBA Member" as something anyone can have.

Jessica Holyoke: I don't know about that

Cat Galileo: the library group I'm part of has two main groups - librarians and "friends of the library" - within librarians there is a special rank for "reference librarians" - we might have tiered memberships?

Jessica Holyoke: only because I'm almost a lawyer but I wouldn't want to give my credentials out in SL which is why I don't practice here

Legal Writer: If we make a division available and be welcoming, we're less likely to have people to want to be members and pretend to be lawyers on the sly.

Benjamin Noble: I don't see any way to avoid having non-lawyer members anyway. Anyone can join a group.

Wendell Holmer: Anyone can say he or she is a lawyer.

Benjamin Noble: Right.

Benjamin Noble: So that leads to this.

Theophan Paine: That happens in rl too.

Benjamin Noble: Some people *want* to be verified.

Jessica Holyoke: But we don't want to lend legitimacy to someone's roleplay that isn't there

Avivanoelle Clary: can't you set up a group that requires approval before adding a new member?

Solomon Cortes: But, if you keep SLBA for discussion of legal issues etc, but not for provision of legal services, and make this a clear part of the charter, the risk is much reduced...

Jessica Holyoke: what you could do is have a role in the SLBA available by invitation only

Wendell Holmer: Solomon is right.

Benjamin Noble: It's possible (invite only) but I don't want to restrict this to just lawyers.

Jessica Holyoke: so like a SLBA member is different than SLBA lawyer

Mondrian Lykin: I think Benjamin's right, we could set up a volunteer basis verification process, which will create "verified" and "unverifired" members

Wendell Holmer: ben is right too

Benjamin Noble nods.

Theophan Paine: Yes, is SLBA goes to cooridinate with real life bar associations and the courts?

Benjamin Noble: Basically, anybody can be a "SLBA Member" and the charter will make it clear that doesn't mean he or she is a lawyer.

Cat Galileo: I agree it's possible but I wonder if the "Bar Assn" part should be reserved for lawyers, and perhaps an auxilary group formed? "Bar Assn" is pretty specific IMO

Legal Writer: Even teh American Bar Association has a "Law Students" Division.

Jessica Holyoke nods to Legal writer

Benjamin Noble: Here's what I propose: "SLBA Verified Attorney" is a title that can only be given to people who verify their credentials.

Petra Basevi: I agree with Cat on that, Bar Associations usually have a law students division but they are not open to general membership

Gelf Yalin: I like the verified idea....

Wendell Holmer: Yes, but here anonymity is part of the game

Legal Writer: Many non-lawyers belong to the American Bar Association.

Solomon Cortes: I'd steer clear of a verification service: even if you can check someone is listed somewhere as a practising lawyer, how can you avoid the problem that they may be advising in SL in breach of all sorts of local bar requirements....

Wendell Holmer: Solomon is right again.

Theophan Paine: some states have what are called "integrated" bar associations.

Gelf Yalin: is disagree with Solomon

Gelf Yalin: I think we are creating non-issues

Wendell Holmer: Why should we be in the business of verifying credentials.

Legal Writer: I am active in the ABA Section of Science and Technology Law and have had fruitful collatorations for years with non-lawyer members of teh ABA, who are technologists and business people.

Benjamin Noble: Well, you can't, Solomon, but neither can a real bar, frankly. People should not practice out of their jurisdiction. We can't really control that, but we can educate.

Gelf Yalin: it is always someone's personal responsiblity to obey their local rules

Benjamin Noble: If they get in trouble (and I bet someone will, to be honest) they get in trouble.

Cat Galileo: Legal, point taken, ty

Wendell Holmer: If we mistakenly verify someone, and that person commits fraud, are we responsible?

Wendell Holmer: Why take that on?

Gelf Yalin: I have joined many different organization...certainly each organization does not have to be approved by a local bar...

Cat Galileo: we would have to disclaim the heck out of it that's for sure

Solomon Cortes: Agreed, but why does SLBA want to offer a service which at best doesn't add any useful info and creates risk...?

Gelf Yalin: we would just have to explain what verified means and what the process is

Benjamin Noble: I propose that verification involve an affidavit indemnifying us, and we get 1) a copy of the bar card, 2) an ID document, and 3) confirmation that avatar X represents person Y.

Legal Writer: Why don't we stick to being a bar association, instead of an integrated bar?

Benjamin Noble: The reason to do it is that people really want it -- some people are practicing here.

Theophan Paine: Why don't we set up a different group as verification service and incorporate it as an NPO?

Cat Galileo: may I comment on that?

Jessica Holyoke: But there's different levels of practice here

Benjamin Noble: But I'm open to arguments against it, I just hear a lot of people saying they want it.

Jessica Holyoke: believe me I know

Benjamin Noble: Yes.

Gelf Yalin: The Society of Financial Service Professionals verifies credentials in a similar fashion, and it has existed for years with no problems

Gelf Yalin: I think people heere are creating more issues tahn there really will be

Solomon Cortes: No qualified lawyer should be offering legal services here except in very limited circs... may I explpain?

Cat Galileo: i'm working on a directory - more on that later - and the fact is lots of folks ARE claiming to be attys - having credentialling could add useful info imo

Gelf Yalin: I think you are dead wrong Solomon

Benjamin Noble: Yes, Solomon. I agree I think, but I'm curious as to why you think that.

Wendell Holmer: Let's hear Solomon out.

Solomon Cortes: First, you have the cross-border issue.

Gelf Yalin: and many people in the ABA and bar associations would disagree

Wendell Holmer: don't say he's wrong until you've listened to him.

Gelf Yalin: I think you are making far more out of this

Benjamin Noble listens.

Solomon Cortes: Then you need to know your client (ie proper ID)

Gelf Yalin: it is an international world with different technologies

Solomon Cortes: And you need to do anti-money laundering checks

Gelf Yalin: saying that lawyers should just run away from these new technologies is silly

Gelf Yalin: and old fashioned

Jessica Holyoke: hold on

Gelf Yalin: and really the dark ages of law

Mondrian Lykin: I don't agree; it would be like saying that only architects should be building on SL

Wendell Holmer: One at a time, please.\

Benjamin Noble: Solomon is the guy that brought a big firm here -- I'm listening, and I don't think he's gunshy about tech generally.

Solomon Cortes: Gelf - no one said that...why don't you listen before commenting?

Michel Manen: should we not try to develp a pool of 2L ccredited attorneys who can show the requisite skils even if not qualified iRL?? I mean, are wwe jsut replicating an RL institution here or do we want to go beyind it and do something creative and SL -specific?

Benjamin Noble bangs his gavel. Order, folks.

Benjamin Noble: Solomon, here's my take: it's like email was 10 years ago. You have to be careful, but you can use this to practice.

Benjamin Noble: Have to be *very* careful.

Solomon Cortes: I think SL is a very exciting plpace in which to offer legal services. Just that there are risks around giving an SLBA accreditation, unless we're very very clear what it means.

Benjamin Noble: But it's possible.

Benjamin Noble: I agree with that, Solomon.

Benjamin Noble: I think this is something we can't take on lightly, but I think it's something people definitely want.

Gelf Yalin: I agree with being clear....

Jessica Holyoke: May I take the floor?

Solomon Cortes: Yes, but all it would mean is that someone checked a directory. Not that that person is legally practising in SL.

Mondrian Lykin: Solomon: SL issues might not require the same kind of experience and qualifications RL issues do

Jessica Holyoke: if solomon yields

Solomon Cortes: of course

Benjamin Noble: Jessica has the floor.

Jessica Holyoke: I've talked to a number of attorneys in SL in relation to them holding themselves out to practice

Jessica Holyoke: and I've found three main types, the ones who believe that SL is solely SL, the ones that cross over and the ones that use SL as a form of web advertising

Jessica Holyoke: The ones that use SL as web advertising are the ones who are open about their credentials and the ones who follow the opinions of their local bars

Jessica Holyoke: the ones that cross over are still fairly open about who they are

Jessica Holyoke: the SL only practices are the ones who are not open

Benjamin Noble: (Just a sidenote to remind latecomers that we're taking a transcript for the website -- Jessica still has the floor.)

Jessica Holyoke: Now I'm not an expert yet on whether or not having an SL only practice is unlicensed practice of law, covering the RP

Jessica Holyoke: but there's also an open ended question of what law is being applied if the majority focus is contracts, pre nups and ToS/AR appeals

Jessica Holyoke: what I'm suggesting is that a SL focused practice doesn't necessarily require the courts as much

Jessica Holyoke: and I yield

Mondrian Lykin: may I take the floor after Jessica?

Benjamin Noble: Mondrian has the floor.

Theophan Paine: I would like a short comment too if possible next.

Mondrian Lykin: thanks

Benjamin Noble: Theophan is next.

Benjamin Noble: After Mondrian.

Mondrian Lykin: basically we're looking at two different kinds of legal services, I believe

Benjamin Noble: And incidentally, I'm in favor of some sort of system, but I think that Solomon's points are good, and I am ultimately going to propose we table action on this until we've had more forum discussion -- probably try to hammer out a formal proposal for a vote next month. Mondrian has the floor now.

Mondrian Lykin: one kind is people taking issues from SL to RL courts, and look for SL-expert lawyers who will act for them in court, or any way, RL

Mondrian Lykin: and the other, SL-limited services, which are born and stay on SL

Henri DeCuir is Offline

Henri DeCuir is Online

Mondrian Lykin: I think we can work on this ground: for SL-only services no special rquirement is necessary except statisfying the costumer, who will of course check the credentials of the professional he's hiring

Mondrian Lykin: whereas the other kind of service will need some kind of verification, at least not to fool anyone about the actual possibility of the lawyer

Mondrian Lykin: -over

Solomon Cortes: Chair, I'd like to comment on that last point after Mondrian and Theophan, if I may...

Mondrian Lykin: (I meant, I'm done :-) )

Theophan Paine: Not all conversations that lawyers have create a lawyer client relationship.

Benjamin Noble: Yes, after Theo, the floor is yours, Solomon.

Theophan Paine: I think we should not be too severe on allowing people to provide information about SL related issues.

Cat Galileo: may i speak after solomon please?

Benjamin Noble nods. Yes, Cat.

Theophan Paine: If someone wants to enter into a attorney client relationship with a RL lawyer they can do that outside the SL interface, that is how I handle it so far.

Theophan Paine: I certainly need to know something about my client before I take them on, and do a conflict check as well.

Spokesman Salomon: I doos me best

Theophan Paine: That is all I have to say at this point.

Benjamin Noble: Solomon?

Solomon Cortes: Thanks

Solomon Cortes: Theophan makes good points.

Solomon Cortes: Our discussion focuses on two issues: (1) can a qualified lawyer legally practise in SL, and (2) should we accredit them?

Solomon Cortes: On the first issue, I believe it is possible, but the law does not stop outside SL

Solomon Cortes: That means all of us are subject to local bar requirements when we practise.

Solomon Cortes: Typically that requires us to know our client, run conflicts etc...

Solomon Cortes: This is something that the SLBA just cannot practically check is happening

Jessica Holyoke: may I take the floor after Cat?

Gelf Yalin: may I have the floor next in line?

Benjamin Noble nods. Yes, Jessica, and Gelf. After Solomon, it's Cat, Jessica, and Gelf.

Solomon Cortes: Therefore, an SLBA accreditation could never practically mean much more than that someone in SLBA checked a directory

Benjamin Noble: Solomon - a question from the Chair?

Michel Manen: well i think SL is in the process of becoming a new kind of enviroment... parts of which cannot be said to be subject to any RL jurisdiction,,, so the challenge is to create an SL specific jursidiction regulated bt the SLBA in order to show that we can be self-governing and not allow RL jurisdiction to invate this new environment and try to fragment it in many pieces...

Solomon Cortes: That really leaves some big questions unanswered - I think that there could be quite a few peoplle who are not licensed or compliant who will try to practise on the basis of an SLBA accreditation.

Solomon Cortes: It's just not an area that I would have thought SLBA would want to get into.

Solomon Cortes: That's it.

Cat Galileo: In interest of time I will make my points on the web board, I yield the floor

Benjamin Noble: Let me ask a question, Solomon: do you think it's impractical to get an affidavit that ties a person to the avatar, says he or she's a lawyer in specific jurisdictions, and attaches bar information? And if not, would that change your perspective?

Wendell Holmer: I'd like the floor at some point.

Benjamin Noble: After Solomon, Jessica, then Gelf, then Wendell. I'm also happy to turn this back into a discussion, if everybody behaves.

Solomon Cortes: I think it would help a lot, though there'd still be the question of whether the attorney was complying with their local bar requirements - which would be practically difficult (impossible) for SLBA to monitor.

Benjamin Noble: Okay. I agree with that. I don't think we can ever monitor that, but I don't think, for example, the San Francisco Bar Association does either.

Mondrian Lykin: guys, I might be missing the point: what kind of practice are we speaking about?

Mondrian Lykin: a substitution of RL meeting with SL ones?

Solomon Cortes: Maybe not, but they can impose meaningful sanctions on infringers.

Benjamin Noble: California can, SF is just basically a social organization, with community service and marketing departments. I see us more like that.

Gelf Yalin: is this back to open discussion or should we take turns?

Benjamin Noble: Sorry, let's finish out the order.

Jessica Holyoke: Solomon was answering the chair's question

Benjamin Noble: Jessica, then Gelf, then Wendell, then we can discuss.

Benjamin Noble: Or move on, and take it to the forums.

Michel Manen: i think its very dangerous to let hundreds of RL bar standards colonise SL... thats what SLBA should be focusing on .. estalbishing our own standards here that would be equivalent deontologically to RL ones even if not identical to all of them (which is impossible)

Jessica Holyoke: ok, conflicts are next to impossible to check in SL due to the anomynity of alts. I could hire a lawyer one day and he could sue my alt the next

Mondrian Lykin agrees with Manen

Benjamin Noble: Michel - I think you've got an interesting perspective, but hang on for a second. We got a little out of order. You can have the floor last on this one, since I know you have a different take on it.

Jessica Holyoke: secodn to Manen's point, as lawyers we are still bound by our local bar associations

Jessica Holyoke: so even if SL is its own place, we are still bound by our local rules

Jessica Holyoke: I yield and will be back

Benjamin Noble: Okay. Wendell is next.

Wendell Holmer: Three points.

Wendell Holmer: Or so.

Wendell Holmer: First I don't see how you can have an attorney-client communication here, because confidentiality is impossible.

Cat Galileo nods

Wendell Holmer: Every keystroke is recorded and can be read by LL or subpoenaed.

Wendell Holmer: Second, this is not a place where what we say and do has no consequences in the real world.

Wendell Holmer: This was Jessica's point.

Benjamin Noble nods. I think that's really important to keep in mind.

Wendell Holmer: We are real people giving advice to real people, and they are relying on it. So we had better be sure it complies with the law in our jurisdiction and in theirs and anywhere else the effects are evident, which may be a different country.

Wendell Holmer: Third, nobody is going to pay me $400 an hour here to give advice about sl things. I'm playing a game. If I want to practice law, I have a desk full of it.]

Wendell Holmer: Finally, I like being anonymous. That's the fun of it.

Ercila Robbins disagrees with that last statement

Wendell Holmer: But I do feel that there should be some sort of dispute resolution mechanism here, and I'm, interested in partricipating in that.

Wendell Holmer: I yield

Gelf Yalin: me next?

Benjamin Noble: Okay. I agree with some of that, disagree with some of it, but it's interesting. For what it's worth, I tell people to think of this as pretty email if you're giving advice here. Gelf, you're up.

Avivanoelle Clary: may i speak after gelf?

Gelf Yalin: I think the best way to handle this

Gelf Yalin: would be to have a division of the SLBA

Benjamin Noble: In the interest of time, I'm going to open it for discussion after Gelf -- free for all for a few minutes -- then let's move on and take it to the forums.

Gelf Yalin: that is a credentialed professional part

Gelf Yalin: so that way people could come to it and find lawyers who have an interest in SL

Gelf Yalin: this would be like many many other professional organizations that have existed for many years

Gelf Yalin: and I like Benjanmin's idea of having a way to link the avatar to a real attorney

Gelf Yalin: as I agree that much of this would have to occur outside of SL (such as conflicts checks)

Gelf Yalin: of course, if people want to just treat this as purely a game

Gelf Yalin: then they would not have to join that part

Gelf Yalin: and still could participate in game-like dispute resolution or other discussions

Gelf Yalin: which is what services like Note bene have tried to do here

Gelf Yalin: that is it for me

Julynn Lilliehook: Look, if people want to get RL legal advice from a SL lawyer, I would preface my opnion with For Entertainment Purposes Only. Sorry, if I am out of order.

Benjamin Noble: Okay - open mic. If you want something in the transcript, or want to ask anyone a question, go for it.

Ercila Robbins is unhappy with missing most of hte meeting.

Mondrian Lykin: Personally, I think some here are underestimating the opportunity SL gives to users, and simply want to replicate the RL model to SL, and I'm really missing the reason why anyone would do that.

Benjamin Noble: Ercila - it's going to go on for a bit still. We're on 2/5 of the agenda. This one took awhile.

Jessica Holyoke: It will be up on the web Ercila

Cat Galileo: plenty left ercila, we went out of order

Ercila Robbins: thank you

Michel Manen: Well, the key question is: are we here to promote RL practices in SL and find new RL clients - or to contribute in developing in the regulation of an entirely new and creative medium of cummunication and interaction? although the two are clearly not mutually exclusive... if we focus too much on the former isntead of the latter we might be mising the whole nature and promise of SL...

Ercila Robbins: there's so much more to it

Julynn Lilliehook: I waould love to beable to find mock jurors and have a mock jury trial.

Mondrian Lykin: Nothing personal, but reading of "$400 fees" on SL it's kind of... scary

Gelf Yalin: I would love to have an international community of lawyers interested in virtual world law as it would be nice to have such a group to be able to refer to, work on clients together with, etc.

Gelf Yalin: I cannot be licensed in every jurisdiction....

Julynn Lilliehook: I only get $40 in RL--mostly PD work

Ercila Robbins agrees with gelf

Gelf Yalin: so I think this would be a help to my international clients

Spokesman Salomon: Would that not entail different regions of sl having different laws and legal systems?

Benjamin Noble: Michel and Mondrian - I think I agree with you that there's cool stuff to be done legally here that goes beyond a traditional bar assn, but I wonder if this organization can do that AND replicate a real bar assn, or if it would be better to let the governance groups you guys are in do that?

Ercila Robbins: me too julynn

Julynn Lilliehook: Why can't we use this to educate people on their constitutional rights. That would help me out a lot.

Ercila Robbins: no

Benjamin Noble: And I do think that I can get $400 an hour for virtual law within a year, doing TM enforcement, if nothing else.

Jessica Holyoke: which constitution?

Ercila Robbins: in what country?

Julynn Lilliehook: Hmmm...US?

Mondrian Lykin: so basically the SLBA wants to be a common interest group, and just that?

Julynn Lilliehook: Ohter countries too!

Theophan Paine: UN Charter?

Jessica Holyoke: what about the Charter of Human Rights and Freedomes?

Ercila Robbins: moe than that

Julynn Lilliehook: okay

Spokesman Salomon: Sitting here under the US flag and even Geroge Wagshinton is entriely inappropriate

Ercila Robbins: international law and federal law, trademarks and copyrights, etc.

Theophan Paine: Universsal Declaration of Human Rights

Benjamin Noble: Well, I don't see it as running a grid-wide legal system. I think other groups are better equipped, and I think the potential for conflicts is huge with this many lawyers.

Cat Galileo: Benjamin IMO TM enforcement is not VIRTUAL law, it's RL law dealing with the use of TM in a new medium. I think this distinction is what's behind some of the mixed ideas 'practicing" law here is

Mondrian Lykin: exactly Cat

Benjamin Noble: Yeah... I think you're right, Cat.

Gelf Yalin: well, I think many of these issues are similar to problems you always face in an international contaxt...that is why there is international arbitration

Julynn Lilliehook: Well, then let an international court form elsewhere.

Ercila Robbins: Yes CAt

Henri DeCuir: We may be losing sight of the thread again, here. Although there certainly are educational opportunities, like Julynn is leaning towards, there is significant commerce going on in here and paying ofor legal services (i.e., protecting tms, ip, business contracts) in the range for $400/hr is not completely crazy. This is not just a game.

Gelf Yalin: and conflicts of laws

Jessica Holyoke: but in support of this, this association is bringing together a wide variety of legal opinions on the subject matter

Julynn Lilliehook: I'd rather take tips...:}

Julynn Lilliehook: Fees mean malpractice exposure

Theophan Paine: It should be a forum for discussion and exchange, not a law firm.

Ercila Robbins: Agrees strongly with Henri

Julynn Lilliehook: agrees with Paine

Mondrian Lykin: Henri: if the market decides that's the rate, fine for me, but I am not entirely sure the issues arasing from SL business will all be RL issues

Wendell Holmer: If I can get $400 here, I'm in.

Ercila Robbins: We are writing the laws. What we do will set precedent. This is the frontier and we're leading the charge.

Benjamin Noble: The big conflict behind a lot of our small conflicts is people who see this as a sandbox for governenment and people who see it as an interface evolution, and not much more. By way of full disclosure, I prefer to see it as the latter, but I like what people are doing with the governance stuff.

Spokesman Salomon: Only ifit's based on common law.

Jessica Holyoke: that we are

Theophan Paine: Courts usually set precedent, not lawyers.

Julynn Lilliehook: I think we ought to have divisions like criminal, civil, TM, etc.

Cat Galileo: I strongly feel that if I were practicing (which I'm not, presently inactive status) I would use SL to make contacts but never, never give legal advice or draw up contracts I thought would be enforced without first contacting outside in 'normal' channels. 10 years from now I might say differently . :-)

Theophan Paine: Or in french law, jurisprudence constante.

Avivanoelle Clary: i'd love to see sections

Ercila Robbins: Courts don''t think of it until lawyers present it, argue it, push it

Jessica Holyoke: so Ben, what do you want to do to get back on the agenda?

Julynn Lilliehook: see, I feel the opposite...I wouldn't want to use this for RL clients

Henri DeCuir: I don't see why not, Mondrian. This may be virtual, but it mimicks real life. I run a business in ere that appear very much like a contracting business. Whywould I not want to look towards RL models for my law?

Benjamin Noble: Okay, folks. I do want to get us back on the agenda.

Julynn Lilliehook: Becasue this is a fantasy

Benjamin Noble: Let's keep this one up in the forums. I know there's a lot of passion on this point.

Wendell Holmer: agrees with cat

Julynn Lilliehook: I hate to tell you this, but I don't look like my avatar.

Ercila Robbins: No Julynn, it's not

Ercila Robbins: the roleplay herein is fantasy

Ercila Robbins: the medium is real

Jessica Holyoke: oh we do not want to go into who doesn't look like their avatar

Henri DeCuir: I draw an income from this 'fantasy', Julynn.

Ercila Robbins: and the people behind theavatars are real

Mondrian Lykin: Henri: many reasons, most important is that you have the opportunity to change that laws and I don't see why you shouldn't; second, because that would just be like saying "SL is RL", which probably is true to the extent people make it be a mimics of RL

Benjamin Noble bangs his gavel and grins.

Julynn Lilliehook: Aah!

Benjamin Noble: Who would have thought it'd be hard to quiet a bunch of lawyers.

Theophan Paine moves in his chair.

Mondrian Lykin: lol

Benjamin Noble: Okay... moving on. This is great, but we've got to stick to some kind of schedule.

Julynn Lilliehook: easy on the gavel

Wendell Holmer: Move to table until next meeting.

Henri DeCuir whispers, "Good points, Mondrian" and grins at Ben.

Cat Galileo: Move to continue on the forums.

Jessica Holyoke: second

Julynn Lilliehook: I would like the creation of divisions to be put on the next agenda, please.

Benjamin Noble: Passes. By fiat.

Julynn Lilliehook: Where are the forums?

Cat Galileo: http://slba.info/forum/YaBB.pl

Benjamin Noble: Julynn - there are some (IP, Transactional, etc.) in the forums, but shoot me a note and I'll get it on there.

Benjamin Noble: Okay - elections.

Julynn Lilliehook: Is there an open bar>

Benjamin Noble: Who wants my job?

Benjamin Noble grins.

Jessica Holyoke: not it

Julynn Lilliehook: What's it pay?

Theophan Paine looks around the room.

Benjamin Noble: Poorly. But you get to herd cats, which is cool.

Julynn Lilliehook: Aah!

Benjamin Noble: Okay, here's what I'm proposing.

Cat Galileo: pass :-)

Henri DeCuir: Actually, I do. But I'm just a law studentt with a degree in computer science. :-)

Julynn Lilliehook: I'd do it...I'm used to poverty.

Benjamin Noble: Self nominations open next week. Three positions. VP Communications (web site, forums); VP Operations (finance); President-Elect.

Benjamin Noble: The president elect will take over in January, so there's a 6 month overlap each year - the VPs take over immediately in July, the President in January.

Jessica Holyoke: I'm like that britney spears song, not a student, not yet a lawyer

Benjamin Noble: So the next president can get up to speed, then run this show for a year.

Michel Manen is Offline

Benjamin Noble: We vote over june 16-20, and I'm guessing that some races will be unconstested, but who knows.

Mondrian Lykin: I can help with the website I think

Solomon Cortes: May I raise a question?

Benjamin Noble: Yes, Solomon.

Benjamin Noble: We're in discussion mode.

Julynn Lilliehook: Over here!

Solomon Cortes: Ben - I think you've done a great job: are you choosing to step down? Will you stand for re-election? I think the SLBA is in good hands at the moment - does the President job need to change?

Theophan Paine: hat about a nominations committee?

Theophan Paine: What*

Benjamin Noble: I'll stay on until January. I don't want this to become "my" thing. But here's what I'm proposing -- I become the first member of the executive committee, which will act in a consultative role with the president, and will consist of all former office holders.

Benjamin Noble: I plan to remain very active, but I want us to change leadership every year. I believe it is good for an organization.

Henri DeCuir: politicians, like diapers... and for the same reasons

Cat Galileo: me Lol @ Henri

Benjamin Noble: True. Also, funny.

Julynn Lilliehook: Aah!

Ercila Robbins: Are you taking nominations now? Becaue Julynn keeps jumping up and down. Grin

Benjamin Noble: I'm not going to abandon it by any means, but I want someone else at the helm. Also, I'm going to burn out after a year of this, and it's good to have fresh ideas.

Solomon Cortes: On that basis, I'd like to make one proposal: I think the President and President elect should be qualified lawyers of some level of standing.

Jessica Holyoke: what level of standing? and where?

Julynn Lilliehook: Standing?

Ercila Robbins: Define level of standing?

Ercila Robbins: hehe

Cat Galileo messes up her emote, how embarassing

Benjamin Noble: I think they should too.

Solomon Cortes: Well, say, 3 years or more post qual. Location, not so relevant.

Legal Writer: Called to the bar in at least one jurisdiction in RL.

Henri DeCuir: I tend to agree. I think that point needs to be elaborated on, but I think SLBA would be better served and represented by those with actual qualifications.

Benjamin Noble: I would encourage anyone who wants to run to strongly consider making their real life credentials part of their election bid.

Gelf Yalin: I agree

Ercila Robbins: But....

Ercila Robbins: A good leader

Ercila Robbins: especially at a public meeting

Ercila Robbins: is not necessarily a good lawyer

Ercila Robbins: the skills are different

Benjamin Noble: That's true.

Ercila Robbins: and i don't think anyone should be shortchanged

Ercila Robbins: because they got admitted yesterday

Cat Galileo: we're back on credentialling again :-)

Benjamin Noble: But I do think that there are nuances to the ethics of this that lawyers will be better equipped to deal with.

Henri DeCuir: No, I don't think there can be a but there. Especially at the beginning, we need to be represented by an actual attrney to lend cedit to the organization and attract more attorneys.

Theophan Paine: Yes, but there are lawyers who are good leaers.

Ercila Robbins: they might have 20 years CEO experience under their betl

Ercila Robbins: that's for the group to saw... we can all have input on nuances, and then some

Henri DeCuir: If Ben was just a law stdent, how long ould we have stuck this out for? Would we have taken it seriously?

Benjamin Noble: I will say this. If no one runs who is able to identify themselves to the satisfaction of the group as a credible lawyer, I will run.

Theophan Paine: Bar association presidents are usually lawyers, no?

Solomon Cortes: To be clear, my suggestion is not for the purposes of excluding non-lawyers: just that some of the issues we are considering / discussing I think should be debated with someone at the helm whio is a practising lawyer.

Benjamin Noble: I entirely agree -- and I think this is different than regular credentialing.

Benjamin Noble: I get press calls fairly often.

Cat Galileo: I see your point Solomon

Benjamin Noble: We have little credibility if we don't have a lawyer at the helm.

Jessica Holyoke: that's true too Benjamin, I've seen your quotes

Theophan Paine: Can we have a governing commitee and a spokesperson rather than a President?

Ercila Robbins: that's not the same as "certain status" or 3 years expeirence

Cat Galileo: or a purely ceremonial president and a governing executive officer? :-)

Henri DeCuir: You want a King, cat?

Benjamin Noble: President is typically the term with Bar Assn's, that's why I went to it.

Cat Galileo: potentially the same person but not necessarily

Ercila Robbins: or a parliamentarian

Ruthi Etzel: May we form a sub-committee to discuss the qualifications and then move on?

Theophan Paine: Well how about a executive committee and president then?

Julynn Lilliehook: Parlimentarian is essential.

Jessica Holyoke: if press issues require an attorney, then should VP communications be held to the same standard

Legal Writer: In the ABA, the Executive Director is in charge of logistics and staff, and the president is a lawyer who holds the office for one year.

Ercila Robbins: This needs a commitee, i agree

Benjamin Noble: I don't actually care if VP comm is a lawyer. I'd rather have a good web designer, frankly.

Mondrian Lykin: I could help with that I think

Benjamin Noble: Okay - we're tabling it to the forums, but I'm going to do it this way so we get some action fairly soon.

Mondrian Lykin: kk I'll check the forum

Jessica Holyoke: right...the internet thing

Benjamin Noble: I'll put a set of bylaws up. They will be what we start with. If everyone hates them, there will be a provision for changing them with a 2/3 majority.

Cat Galileo: put a poll on forums & make a group announcement with forum web addy ?

Benjamin Noble: Yes. http://www.slba.info -- follow the link to the forums. I'll put an announcement up after the mtg too.

Benjamin Noble: Very simple stuff - I'm not much for complex systems that don't need to be complex.

Benjamin Noble: I'm going to push for nominations next week in the forums. I believe there's plenty of interest.

Benjamin Noble: Particularly for president, I encourage those of you who are public about your persona to seek the office -- the press contacts are 1-2 per week, and they all want your real name.

Ercila Robbins: THAT ought to be intresting

Benjamin Noble: And I agree with Solomon that it needs to be a lawyer, and probably should -- though the votes can dictate this -- be one with at least a couple years experience.

Benjamin Noble: Cat - want to talk about the library relationship briefly?

Cat Galileo: yes thank you

Cat Galileo: hi folks

Cat Galileo: my name is Cat Galileo. IRL I am a California lawyer (not currently practicing) and a law librarian for the county public law library in Sacramento, CA.

Cat Galileo: in interest of full disclosure, Catherine Fitz, Cal. State Bar No. 184865 :-)

Benjamin Noble grins. Boaltie, right?

Cat Galileo: yes

Cat Galileo: Benjamin has graciously given me time to introduce myself and the projects I'm involved in. I'm going to talk a little about the Info Island library project, and introduce my new creation, the “Galileo Law Directory.”

Cat Galileo: I apologize for the pre-written remarks; I will answer questions in a few minutes, if any, but first I want to get through what I prepared.

Cat Galileo: I'm fascinated, as many of you are, with the impact of law on virtual worlds and economies, and the impact of virtual worlds on the law. I look forward to working with you all in the SLBA.

Cat Galileo: I'm also part of the Alliance Library System's “Second Life Library 2.0” project, aka Info Island. Actually now it's Info Archipelago, b/c we are up to 9-10 islands. The project just had its 1-year anniversary.

Cat Galileo: My role is creating and running a law library. I've been doing it since last summer.

Cat Galileo: I have links to general legal resources on the web, such as Thomas, portals like Justia and Findlaw; links to info about law for librarians; links to practice info; etc.

Cat Galileo: due to my lack of international knowledge, I'm sorry to say it is mostly USA info, I would like to change that

Cat Galileo: But I am particularly interested in building a collection related to law and virtual worlds. I'm displaying RSS feed headlines of blogs like Virtually Blind; have links to Linden economic and legal info; have a “book” on the Bragg v Linden case; and have a bibliography of law review and other articles on law and virtual worlds, among other things.

Cat Galileo: There are sure a lot of developments in this area in the past month or two! I don't yet have any info on the ageplay issue, for instance, and want to add some. I am working on updating my collection, but there's a lot to do and I run the library entirely in my spare time :-)

Julynn Lilliehook: Aah!

Cat Galileo: I would love to build this up more. If you have written articles that you would be willing to let me turn into a book; links; or other resources, please let me know! IM me in game or email kate@ceratops.net

Cat Galileo: I would also be thrilled to work with you to host talks or other events. My library has a fairly small space, but Info Island has several really nice venues for talking to groups.

Cat Galileo: I am going to be on a “Special Libraries in Second Life” panel at Internet Librarian conference this October and hope to report that the library has become an active participant in the burgeoning growth of the study of virtual world law and that we have developed a great international network of legal professionals connected via SL.

Jessica Holyoke: Can you send a LM as a group notice?

Benjamin Noble: Send it to me -- I have member notices disabled (though maybe I should change that).

Cat Galileo: Ben can I think

Cat Galileo: One of my displays in the library was called “Travel Guide to Law in Second Life” -- an attempt to gather info about groups working on legal and related issues in-world.

Benjamin Noble: I'll send it after the meeting.

Cat Galileo: When I first created it six months or so ago, there wasn't much in it.

Cat Galileo: Now, as I tried to update it, there are many lawyers and groups to include. So, I have created it in book format for use in-world, and also posted it on the web. I call it the “Galileo Law Directory.”

Benjamin Noble: That lists lawyers in SL, right?

Cat Galileo: I have a draft ready but now I'm worried I need to add a disclaimer saying I haven't checked credentials :-)

Benjamin Noble: I would add that disclaimer.

Benjamin Noble smiles.

Cat Galileo: yes, it lists lawyers, and other groups identifying themselves as interested in legal issues

Cat Galileo: you can see it at http://sllawspot.pbwiki.com/Directory for now

Cat Galileo: it lists them based on the in-world search function

Cat Galileo: Copies of the directory are free. Listings in the directories are free. I am running through quite a few Lindens uploading the images, so I will accept donations & might eventually consider including ads in return for sponsorship or just plain payment, but not right now.

Cat Galileo: I want to include as many as are interested :-)

Cat Galileo: If you want to be listed, or if you are listed and want a correction or update, contact me in game or at kate@ceratops.net

Cat Galileo: I will commit to keeping the web version updated daily and issuing updates to the in-world version regularly. As you will see if you look, the in-world version refers readers to the website for the most up-to-date info.

Cat Galileo: If you want to receive in-world updates automatically you can join the Galileo Law Directory group or let me know and I'll make a list (I know the 25-group limit makes me leery of joining update groups!)

Cat Galileo: Thats it for my canned remarks :-) thanks for listening.

Benjamin Noble: Thanks, Cat. Questions for Cat?

Benjamin Noble: (Besides, "Where did you get those cool glasses?")

Ruthi Etzel: Any possibility of getting Lexis in the law library?

Henri DeCuir looks like he was about to speak, hears Ben, and sits back down.

Cat Galileo: You know, Ruthi, one of the things I would like to investigate is sponsorship by someone like Lexis.

Ruthi Etzel: Good to hear!

Cat Galileo: We just negotiated our Lexis K at my 'real' job and I'm not sure they would put much content out for free, they get a pretty penny for it LOL

Henri DeCuir: That would be a challenging interface. Could be really great for them, and they are generous to law students at least.

Jessica Holyoke nods

Henri DeCuir: oh, but apparently not to county libraries.

Benjamin Noble: Crack dealers are generouse to non-users too.

Cat Galileo: the interface would probably be a l ink through to the Web -- we don't currently have HTML in world support

Ercila Robbins: /agrees with ben

Henri DeCuir: Oh, Ben, that's not the first time somebody's made tht comparison. Let me enjoy my free printing and candy and books guilt free, ok?

Henri DeCuir: That's not actually entirely true, Cat.

Cat Galileo: that's a great idea though-- The overall library project I'm in has substantial sponsorship from library vendors such as Sirsi Dynex and OCLC

Henri DeCuir: LSL allows for interaction with web servers. The interface could be functional from in game

Benjamin Noble: Okay. Very much appreciated Cat. To keep things moving, why don't you shoot Cat a note offline if you want to get listed, or want more info.

Jessica Holyoke is Offline

Ruthi Etzel: Thanks, Cat. That was very interesting.

Cat Galileo: I would love a scripter who knows something about that to work with :-) I'm verya mature at scripting

Cat Galileo: Thanks again for your attention

Theophan Paine: Can we send you links to cases that might have some SL tie in?

Cat Galileo: *amateur at scripting

Cat Galileo: yes that would be lovely. thanks

Benjamin Noble: Thanks again, Cat. Sorry to cut off discussion, but I think you can take these offline and I don't want to ruin the whole Saturday for everybody.

Benjamin Noble: My part, the ruining part. Not yours. :-)

Cat Galileo: understood completely :-)

Cat Galileo: thanks for the time

Henri DeCuir: Thank you, Cat.

Cat Galileo: if you im me I will give you a landmark

Benjamin Noble: Mondrian - want to talk government systems for a few minutes? I'm going to try to direct this to potentially SLBA integrated projects, particularly what you and Ashcroft are up to. I know it's a sensitive issue to some, so let's just run an update, and we can hash out differences in the forums.

Theophan Paine: Can we have a time frame for the rest of the meeting?

Benjamin Noble: 15 minutes. I promise.

Theophan Paine nods.

Mondrian Lykin: sure

Benjamin Noble: I'll cover pro-bono stuff in two sentences.

Mondrian Lykin: Hello guys :-) and thanks for the opportunity to tell you a few words on two projects I've been working with some other SL users you might know, like Ashcroft Burnham and Michel Manen (who was here before).

Ercila Robbins: checks her watch, thinking her next meeting

Mondrian Lykin: We are working on two projects mainly: one is the Local Government Study Group, aiming to the promotion of tools to facilitate local governance by those who inhabit that virtual world.

Mondrian Lykin: Quoting the introduction on the website, "The potential benefits of virtual world government of the sort best achievable through governance tools include the prorogation of the rule of law and democracy, effective enforcement of rules, and the promotion of a healthy and stable commercial economy by such means as effective contract and intellectual property enforcement and dispute resolution."

Mondrian Lykin: I'll cut it short and tell you that, since we alaready did set up a website with all the information, For any further information, and if you would like to partecipate to the project, refer to the project wiki - http://lgsg.wetpaint.com

Mondrian Lykin: That's for the LGSG.

Mondrian Lykin: The other one, and in my opinion more interesting, is temporarily named Justice List and aims to create a complete legal system for SecondLife, but one that has real powers of enforcement, and one that doesn't need any help from Linden Lab to make work.

Mondrian Lykin: Of course, the system will be designed for Second Life, and will sit on a Constitution which is still being drafted, and which will include the basic principles on which local rules and general rules can be created upon.

Mondrian Lykin: It won't need the Linden to work, differently from the LGSG, and will therefore be enforced using the technical tools Second Life currently offers.

Mondrian Lykin: the technical tools Second Life currently offers. If anyone is aware of it, there have been some experiments of such a thing, though with a much lower level of complexity and without the use of an entire legal system, and it's called "BanLink". We're moving from that experiment to a higher, more interesting - we think - level. If anyone wants to join, just join the group "Justice List" on SL, and IM me for an account on our tools.

Benjamin Noble: There's a lengthy, and very high quality, thread on this in our forums too.

Mondrian Lykin: hope I made it short enough not to bore you :-) and please welcome your questions, if you have any

Ercila Robbins: one that takes into account all the different role plays per sim?

Mondrian Lykin: Ercila: that would be enforced by local laws and rules

Benjamin Noble: Thanks, Mondrian. I'm going to suggest that after you answer Ercila's question, other questions go offline, just because I want to get us wrapped up.

Ercila Robbins: local meaning sim? or meaning RL jurisidctino? what's local?

Mondrian Lykin: what we're going to to a higher frame on which people will then build their own rules

Mondrian Lykin: local meaning sim

Mondrian Lykin: it's going to be designed for SL and stay on SL

Ercila Robbins: yes, but SL is different in every sim

Mondrian Lykin: http://15timez.blogspot.com/2007/05/virtual-arms-of-law.html use this as reference, until we put all this up on a website

Ercila Robbins: sorry

Mondrian Lykin: it's an interview we had for tthe SL-Newspaper

Mondrian Lykin: and which Benjamin already linked from VBlind :-)

Mondrian Lykin: thanks for your time!

Benjamin Noble: Thanks, Mondrian.

Benjamin Noble: There's a lot to discuss on that front, and I apologize for cutting it off.

Theophan Paine smiles and thinks brevity is a good quality for a lawyer to have...

Benjamin Noble: But we could go all afternoon on it.

Benjamin Noble: So to the forums.

Benjamin Noble: Okay - pro bono.

Benjamin Noble: One cool thing is happening.

Benjamin Noble: Iowa Legal Aid is seeking a grant.

Benjamin Noble: To do outreach in SL.

Ercila Robbins: I've done 20 years pro bono and poverty law in RL... i'll skip this one

Ercila Robbins: LOL

Benjamin Noble grins.

Benjamin Noble: And I just wrote a letter of support in my capacity as SLBA President (RL grant, RL $)

Benjamin Noble: I'm hoping we can work with them.

Benjamin Noble: Somehow. Not sure what they're doing exactly, but it's not giving free legal advice to newbie avatars, I think it's more like education, etc. using the client.

Benjamin Noble: Anyway, it looks like a good opportunity for us to help out, and get some press too.

Benjamin Noble: The other thing I'm considering is holding an office hour every day at the SLBA offices. Somebody pointed out in a blog that we're rarely staffed, and they're right. Though we're all on a lot.

Henri DeCuir: That's something that a little technology in the fofice will help fix too

Benjamin Noble: I try to hang out there for an hour or so when I'm on, and I regularly get a drop-in who wants to talk about law. Not really seeking advice, just curious, but it'd be good for us to stay staffed, and it's pro bono/education in a sense.

Benjamin Noble: Anyway, I'll put something in the forums. Maybe people will want to work out a schedule to cover the desk periodically.

Benjamin Noble: And that, is that. Henri DeCuir was going to talk about some of the cool tech stuff he's worked out for the office, but graciously offered to defer it to the next meeting so we can wrap up.

Benjamin Noble: Is there a motion to adjourn?

Cat Galileo: one minute please

Benjamin Noble nods.

Benjamin Noble: Cat has the floor.

Cat Galileo: i just updated the directory with the disclaimer - send me an IM if you would like a copy or visit the library :-)

Cat Galileo: I'm done

Theophan Paine: I make a motion to adjourn.

Benjamin Noble: Second?

Ruthi Etzel: Second

Benjamin Noble: Without objection...

Benjamin Noble: The motion passes by popular will, communicated through the ether.

Benjamin Noble: We're adjourned.