Second Life Bar Association Meeting Transcript
August 11, 2007

Here is the transcript from the August 11, 2007 meeting.  Unfortunately, I moved out of the chat range of Little Gray (of the Second Life ACLU) he was giving his presentation on the group so I wasn't aware he was talking and thought he was offline.  Apologizes to Little for that, as it made for a minorly confusing conversation.  Also, thanks to Jessica Holyoke for providing that missing part of the transcript.
 
Benjamin Noble: Hi everyone. Thanks for coming on what is, at least here, a really nice Saturday. We'll try to keep things moving this week so we an all enjoy it some.

Benjamin Noble: The first agenda item is one that I'm really happy about.

Benjamin Noble: We just concluded our first-ever elections.

Benjamin Noble: As most of you know, I started this back in January, and I feel that it's important for leadership to change so groups don't become individual's little fiefdoms.

Benjamin Noble: So we had elections, for all offices, last month.

Benjamin Noble: First, I'd like to congratulate the new officers. President-Elect: Solomon Cortes

Ashcroft Burnham: :-D

Benjamin Noble: Solomon is going to take over at the end of January when my term expires.

Benjamin Noble: He's a practicing attorney in real life. Introduce yourselves to him and say hi - I could not be happier with the fact that he's taking over. He's dedicated to law in Second Life and was responsible for bringing his firm here.

Solomon Cortes: Thank you for your kind words, Ben.

Ashcroft Burnham: Congratulations!

Benjamin Noble: Also I'd like to congratulate Geri Kuhn and Henri DeCuir for VP roles. Geri is a practicing attorney in California, and Henri is a 3rd year law student.

Benjamin Noble: Henri's moving at the moment, but Geri's here.

Benjamin Noble: So congratulations. I look forward to working with all of you.

Solomon Cortes: I look forward to working with everyone, and continuing Ben's excellent work for the association.

Ashcroft Burnham congratulates Geri and Henri and everbody else with a two-sylable name ending in "i"...

Geri Kuhn laughs

Geri Kuhn: Thanks

Benjamin Noble: Finally, three members were elected to the executive board. Cat Galileo, a RL and SL law librarian, Jessica Holyoke - who just took the bar, so we're all wishing her luck there - and Theophan Paine, a practicing attorney in New York.

Ashcroft Burnham congratulates everybody who needs congratulationg, and a few who don't for good measure.

Benjamin Noble: All have been a part of SLBA since the beginning (grinning - six whole months ago) and should be great in helping shape the organization.

Benjamin Noble: Thanks, everyone.

Vanora McMillan: Congrats to you all! I lok forward to meeting you!

Ashcroft Burnham: :-D

Benjamin Noble: Okay, we'll do this meeting like all the others so far. Open discussion unless we've got a motion on the table, and then light parlimentary procedure.

Vanora McMillan claps

Julynn Lilliehook: white

Benjamin Noble: There's a good reference here: http://members.cruzio.com/~spitzer/parliamentary.html for that if we have motions. I'm not sure we will today, but we'll see.

Gert Waydelich: hi all

Benjamin Noble: Let me say again, too, for people just arriving, that we keep a transcript of these and run it in the forums.

Benjamin Noble wonders if I said that earlier.

Benjamin Noble: Well, if not, we do.

Jessica Holyoke: you got it covered now Benjamin

Benjamin Noble: Thanks Jessica.

Benjamin Noble: Okay... the first one is one I am just going to toss open to discussion.

Benjamin Noble: It's pro bono opportunities in world that the SLBA can get involved in.

Benjamin Noble: I've talked to members about this some, and here's what I've heard.

Ashcroft Burnham: There's the Metaverse Republic, of course Not pro bono in the more traditional sense, but worthwhile all the same

Benjamin Noble: There are some traditional pro bono opportunities (in the sense of helping people who can't afford representation)...

Ashcroft Burnham: See http://www.metaverserepublic.org for more information

Bella Dechou: ao off

Benjamin Noble grins. Nice plug.

Benjamin Noble: And there are things that are more accurately considered "public interest law" that people do for free too, not really pro bono in the traditional sense, but valuable too.

Vanora McMillan is an ABA certified paralegal who can do probono for those practicing attorneys.. (sorry, another plug ) lol

Benjamin Noble nods. No, that's great. Definitely.

Vanora McMillan never finished law school - oops

Vanora McMillan: Thank you Ben

Benjamin Noble: What does everyone think? How should we go about identifying place we can help in world?

Vanora McMillan: I think it's an excellent idea.

Solomon Cortes: Ben, may I make a suggestion?

Benjamin Noble: Sure, Solomon. The floor is open at this point, I'd love to hear ideas.

Solomon Cortes: I'd propose that during the course of this meeting or after, we find one or two people within the group who are interested in helping to coordinate our activities. They could first establish who in the group has capacity and interest in providing pro bono assistance, and we could all bring opportunities to them. They could then help consider how we could help, and who best among those interested to put in touch. Would that be a good starting point?

Benjamin Noble: Basically, a volunteer Pro Bono Coordinator?

Jessica Holyoke: Benjamin, may I have the floor next?

Solomon Cortes: Yes, or coordinators.

Benjamin Noble: Yes - Jessica, you can just jump in here. I'm only using parlimentary procedure if we've got a motion pending.

Benjamin Noble: ...or if it just disintegrates to mayhem, I guess We'll be as informal as we can be just so it keeps moving.

Vanora McMillan: Maybe setting up a Group 1st for the publicly-sponsered representation

Jessica Holyoke: let's define first what realm we should be looking for as far as pro bono, should we be using SL as a RL advertisement for Pro bono help or offer it to SL help only?

Jessica Holyoke: or rather limit it

Benjamin Noble: There's a lot of RL resources for this -- I don't see why we couldn't do a RL crossover, but I'm not sure it would be as helpful and relevant to Second Life as focusing on Second Life problems.

Jessica Holyoke: Its the referral issue is all, one thing to consider

Benjamin Noble: How do you mean?

Jessica Holyoke: well, we do some referrals now, but on a limited basis for people with issues

Jessica Holyoke: do we want to open that up even wider if we advertise RL pro bono help

Jessica Holyoke: or limit it to SL pro bono issues

Benjamin Noble: The way I see it is we'd volunteer our time for in world problems, and some of those could, of course end up in real courts or involve face-to-face negotiations or whatever, but I'd think starting with Second Life issues is the better plan.

Vanora McMillan: I think that would be a great idea to make the help available in RL

Ashcroft Burnham: I work for a FL pro bono organisation.

Benjamin Noble: I think it's kind of inevitable that some will go that way. Say, a landlord tenant thing here, most of those would stay in world, but I could see, conceivably, one ending up in small claims court.

Julynn Lilliehook: If I may offer my suggestion....

Benjamin Noble: Fire at will. I think "brainstorming" is where we're at with this.

Julynn Lilliehook: Because we have no governing law in-world...I think we should educate users how to enter into contracts in RL to protec their SL interests.

Vanora McMillan: Julynn - I wholeheartedly agree

Julynn Lilliehook: teach them how to choose the forum they would like their dispute heard in, should one arise in-wrold.

Jessica Holyoke: I'm not a big fan of that as much Julynn, only because of the international nature of the residents

Benjamin Noble nods. Maybe run a clinic once a week where people can come by qith questions?

Julynn Lilliehook: Why not? Anyone can choose their forum.

Ashcroft Burnham: That's why we need the Metaverse Republic But it's not built yet, alas...

Benjamin Noble: Jessica - couldn't people do contracts that cross borders? We certainly do in real life.

Julynn Lilliehook: That's what I mean...In the States we agree which state's laws wqill be appplied in a dispute.

Jessica Holyoke: It does, and if two parties are negotiating I don't have an issue with that, but in my mind, if you use a standardized contract, are you really intending to use US law if you reside in Germany?

Julynn Lilliehook: So If I am in Wisconsin, but contract with a company in Iowa, I can agree that the dispute will be heard in Iowa.

Jessica Holyoke: My problem would be more with the standardized contracts, not the negotiated ones

Benjamin Noble: I wouldn't recc'd a standardized contract for international work generally.

Julynn Lilliehook: No...you can use German law if you with.

Little Gray: maybe have a written guide for making contracts covering such things as permissions of notecards, obtaining the electronic eqiv of a written signature, maintainign accurate version and service history, etc.

Benjamin Noble: What if it were more like a clinic, where people could drop in with questions on say, this week, contracts.

Julynn Lilliehook: There shouold be no standard contracts.

Julynn Lilliehook: wish

Benjamin Noble: Next week, landlord tenant stuff.

Benjamin Noble: Etc.

Jessica Holyoke: I could see that

Benjamin Noble: So there wasn't a danger of giving overbroad advice that wasn't helpful (which is I'm taking Jessica's point).

Bella Dechou: i think thats a good idea to start with

Benjamin Noble nods. Okay.

Vanora McMillan: So now we will have two entities... now for education... the second for implementing specific case help... ?

Jessica Holyoke: not really, but its a good point too

Bella Dechou: people are intimidated by all that "legal" stuff

Julynn Lilliehook: Yes...I like the idea of perhaps a pro se library of things to consider before investing or contracting within SL>

Bella Dechou: they want to know they can have questions answered in a more simple manner

Benjamin Noble: Well, the education thing is harder, because of what Jessica said, there's not much general advice that can be given since SL is so spread out in terms of jurisdiction.

Benjamin Noble: But one to one education works great, and a lot of RL bars do that.

Benjamin Noble: Run clinics like this.

Benjamin Noble: I'm hearing (summary time) an idea of doing one to one education, clinics, basically.

Julynn Lilliehook: Well, it's just like I said...you explain to them their are options as to the law they wish to use. You don't give legal advice, you educate them on legal concepts such as contracts, which are pretty general.

Benjamin Noble: Right. I think that's the way to approach it.

Vanora McMillan: JUly - perfect

Benjamin Noble: And another idea of having a pro bono coordinator for the group, for specific problems for people who need representation and can't afford it, in world.

Vanora McMillan: Then for the pro-bono - whether SL/RL - they can be speicifilly handled by the most qualified... ?

Benjamin Noble: Right. People who are active lawyers, who are practicing in world, etc.

Julynn Lilliehook: I have a particular interest in educating Americans on criminal law...so for me I would perhaps give talks or be available to speak on that subject.

Vanora McMillan: Ben - sorry... I'll be quite now .. lol

Benjamin Noble: No, don't be, Vanora. Good ideas.

Geri Kuhn: GoinI think having a coordinator is a great idea. He/she can also send out group notices when they receive an inquiry and coordinate classes.

Gert Waydelich: can I say soemthing?

Benjamin Noble: Sure, it's open floor, Gert.

Julynn Lilliehook: I woudl also be interested in getting together with lawyers from arounfd the world to discuss our justice systems.

Gert Waydelich: well

Gert Waydelich: of course it can be useful to give general suggestions over sensible or public interest issues as contracts

Gert Waydelich: but I find

Gert Waydelich: that it can be very complicated to keep in count

Gert Waydelich: that a lot of national laws can be applied

Gert Waydelich: example giving

Gert Waydelich: if an italian citizen

Gert Waydelich: define a contract

Gert Waydelich: with another italian citizen

Gert Waydelich: even regarding second life activities

Benjamin Noble: [Just want to remind everybody that we keep transcripts for the forums, as a few new people have arrived - sorry, go on Gert]

Gert Waydelich: the contract is defined under Italian law jurisdicion

Canary Young: At this point, we probably don't have to worry about a system that can cover all of SL since the language issue will effectively limit our participation to dealing with those who speak English..

Solomon Cortes: I like the idea of offering a clinic, but I think we should equally focus on how we can help a few good causes in SL achieve their objectives. I suggest more focus on helping worthwhile charitable causes on achieving useful and beneficial objectives in SL. We should help those with public service aims or those in genuine need and without the resources to afford legal assistance themselves. We should try to distinguish the former, from just assisting with low value commercial disputes in SL. At least, that's what I think.

Prokofy Neva: I'm concerned that you went from the noble idea of helping people with inworld problems, to then beginning to discuss how can you make a standardized international contract to impose on the world. I think you should stick to casework tethered to RL law if need be and avoid concocting standardized international governance instruments to impose on the world.

LastDitch Writer: We can get a little too lawyerly here. Pro bono is often about practical advice. A lot of landlords here use standard contracts. Clinics could advise specifically on problems with those. I work across international boundaries and the principles don't vary as much as you might think.

Benjamin Noble nods. I think -- anybody jump in if this is wrong -- that nobody is trying to come up with a standard contract. I don't think they work, and most lawyers abhor them.

Jessica Holyoke: Wait, Gert did you finish what you were saying?

Julynn Lilliehook: Pro bono means free...Pro se means self-help...Are we sure we really mean pro bono?

Gert Waydelich: what I mean at the bottom of my speech is that we can't forget that behind and avatar there's always a phisical person

Gert Waydelich: who must follow rl law

Prokofy Neva: It's important to recall that landlords in Second Life have made notecarded leases that have served thousands upon thousands of tenants perfectly well, with in fact a very low incidence of fraud (it's mainly related to islands), and that this has been done for years in Second Life, without lawyers from first life coming in and imposing an enforced contractual relationship on the world, or God forbid, in the client. Consumers are free to comparison shop among a huge variety of offerings.

Benjamin Noble: I think so... Gert, I think you're right, that it has to be pretty specific advice, and yes that the person behind the avatar matters.

Ashcroft Burnham: Actually, pro bono publico means for the public benefit

Alexei Skjellerup nods at Gert's statement...

Gert Waydelich: so that it can be truly complicated to give around even general suggestion

Benjamin Noble nods.

LastDitch Writer: Excuse me, Mr Chairman. RL calls. Bye everyone.

Benjamin Noble: Yeah, nobody wants to try to enforce a stadard contract here.

Julynn Lilliehook: LEave it to a barrister to translate Latin!

Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!

Prokofy Neva: So again I think it's important to stick to actual, real case work related to actual documented fraud cases rather than try to globalize these issues with imposing contracts on SL business.

Jessica Holyoke: but we don't have space to enforce a contract in SL without courts or ADr

Benjamin Noble: So anyway, we have some ideas it sounds like. 1) pro bono coordinator for people who can't afford help and need specific advice, also to coordinate working with charitable organizations who need help.

Benjamin Noble: 2) education one-to-one via clinics.

Solomon Cortes: I generally agree with Prokofy, save that this isn't just about fraud.

Benjamin Noble: I do as well.

Vanora McMillan nods

Vanora McMillan: Ben - exactly what I was trying to get at

Julynn Lilliehook: A contract is only as good as your willingness to enforce it.

Jessica Holyoke: Ben-how long are we looking at running the meeting?

Vanora McMillan: JUly - exactly - and with the lack of SL enforcement... lol

Benjamin Noble: This is the big topic. I'm hoping to end it in about half an hour - the rest should go fairly quickly, except maybe voluntary verification depending on discussion.

Solomon Cortes: May I add though, that - while this is not the forum at the moment to discuss conflict of law issues - if we are offering playing a role in making pro bono legal advice available in SL, we need to be comfortable that whoever is responsible for providing it is a qualified lawyer, and that they are qualified in the relevant jurisdiction to advise the client.

Benjamin Noble: That is completely true, Solomon.

Gert Waydelich: I agree Solomon

Jessica Holyoke: I make a motion to table the Pro bono discussion for now and continue it on a thread on the forums

Vanora McMillan: Solomon - hence the next discussion of verification !

Benjamin Noble: Jessica has made a motion. Is there a second?

Vanora McMillan: Second.

Ashcroft Burnham: Solomon has a good point

Benjamin Noble: Any objection?

Solomon Cortes: Just one comment...

Solomon Cortes: Ben, maybe we could have a couple of threads - one on how we might do this, and another on potential individuals or causes requiring assistance. Just so everything doesn't get too mixed up, and we keep sight of ensuring that we have an effective process, and offering assistance to recipients who are needful of assistance

Solomon Cortes: Sorry - bit of a mouthful - difficult to check what you've written in a single line, but hopefully you catch my drift.

Benjamin Noble: Okay. Thanks. Good ideas. Without objection, the motion carries. We'll move this to the forums. If you're interested in being the pro bono coordinator, definitely jump in there. That sounds like a volunteer position that several people here could well be up for.

Vanora McMillan: Solo - great suggestion

Benjamin Noble: Third on the agenda is office space update.

Benjamin Noble: The build is coming along beautifully. Cat Galileo (who is at work, I believe) posted a link to a video in the forums.

Benjamin Noble: It's worth checking out.

Vanora McMillan: Excellent!

Benjamin Noble: And again, I want to thank Beathan Vale for making it available to us. It's not ready for move in yet, but it's getting close.

Benjamin Noble: I hope by next meeting.

Benjamin Noble: Any questions on that?

Jessica Holyoke: Will it have meeting space?

Benjamin Noble: Yes.

Benjamin Noble: A big public meeting space, so we don't have to do it in a mock up of the U.S. Conress any more.

Benjamin Noble: And we'll have a nice office there too - it's on the front of the "bow" part of the building. Cool views.

Ashcroft Burnham likes the mockup of the US Congress :-p

Alexei Skjellerup sighs...

Benjamin Noble: I feel riduculous up here, Ashcroft. But it's a free place for a meeting. I do like sitting on the counter though.

Alexei Skjellerup smiles...

Da Etchegaray: you have a higher approval ratiung than congress does

Ashcroft Burnham: LOL!

Vanora McMillan: Da - LMAO

Benjamin Noble: That's not so hard.

Prokofy Neva: The SLBA should avoid the appearance of seeming like a self-appointed government taking over a replica of Congress.

Benjamin Noble: Yes indeed.

Benjamin Noble: I can't wait to get out of here.

Vanora McMillan: Pro- as general as we can get it - yes, I agree!

Benjamin Noble: Okay. Next up is voluntary credential verification.

Benjamin Noble: I think there are two very fair questions here. The first is whether we should do a voluntary credential verification service at all, and the second is -- if so -- how it should work.

Vanora McMillan thinks that chairs coudl use some cushion too...

Benjamin Noble: We've struggled in the past trying to have a debate about a system because there wasn't any particular system proposed to debate. So at the last meeting, you all voted to have me come up with a proposal, and then we could talk about it.

Benjamin Noble: I should say off the top that I'm not endorsing this particularly, it's just the most logical, workable solution I could come up with. I suggest we talk about it here, and then dedicate a forum thread to it after this too so people who couldn't make the meeting can weigh in. We can vote on it at the next meeting (or a later one if discussion is still going on then).

Benjamin Noble: Okay - it seems the simplist way to do this is like this (I'm totally open on changes, this is just so we have something to talk about).

Benjamin Noble: 1) Someone who wants to be verified tells the SLBA Executive Board his or her real life name and real-life Bar Association number in-world.

Benjamin Noble: 2) A member in charge of verification (maybe two for cross-checking) calls the telephone number that the state or federal bar has associated with that name and bar number (for example, you can get my phone number by searching my name or Bar No. -- 228541 -- at http://calbar.ca.gov, and I believe that works in other locales too).

Benjamin Noble: 3) Speaking to the member by voice at the telephone number listed via the real-life bar association site, the member(s) in charge of verification would confirm the tie between the avatar and the real-life attorney.

Benjamin Noble: 4) The real-life attorney would also execute a paper affidavit attesting to the connection between the avatar and the attorney, and stating what jurisidictions he or she is authorized to practice in. He or she would also execute a disclaimer stating that he or she will keep the SLBA updated as to any changes in status, absolving the SLBA of responsibility for bad acts, etc.

Benjamin Noble: Open for discussion.

Vanora McMillan nods approvingly

Little Gray: like, please verifiy me: http://members.calbar.ca.gov/search/member_detail.aspx?x=196060

Da Etchegaray: maybe check multstate scores?

Benjamin Noble: Bad link: http://www.calbar.ca.gov/state/calbar/calbar_home.jsp

Benjamin Noble: That one works.

Jessica Holyoke: Where would the affdavidts be kept?

Jessica Holyoke: affidavits

Benjamin Noble: Scans could be online.

Gert Waydelich: unfortunately a system, even with the caratheristics suggested, and even if reasonable, is not in accordance with italian professional practice law

Solomon Cortes: Why not?

Gert Waydelich: I've been thinking deeply on this topic

Little Gray: hrm .. whats prevent folks from just providing false information? maybe verification would involve contacting the person in RL through the state bar information in order to verify they are who they say they are.

Gert Waydelich: but in Italy we have a tight principle which is named "persoanlity principle"

Benjamin Noble: Little, exactly. Then somebody would call the person listed there at that number, and say, "Are you Little Gray?"

Benjamin Noble listens to Gert.

Julynn Lilliehook: I passed the multi-state 3 times...do I get to be Queen???

Gert Waydelich: it is to say that, an Italian lawyer, example giving, to begin a lawsuit needs a special formed power of attorney

Solomon Cortes: We need to understand why Gert thinks there's a problem.

Gert Waydelich: and as we get a non contentious encharge

Gert Waydelich: we need to identify the same the client

Gert Waydelich: personally

Solomon Cortes: Gert, may I stop you for a second - I think there's a misunderstanding here.

Canary Young: I think we need bar info and a drivers license to avoid impersonating a name you found on a bar website

Gert Waydelich: due to a anti criminal money use and source law

Gert Waydelich: sure

Solomon Cortes: Gert - this is not about SLBA verifying that an individual SLBA member is entitled to act on a particular matter or on behalf of an individual.

Rykk Ferraris: You could get the bar card AND the driver's license from a stolen wallet. Point is, who would want to impersoante an attorney in SL? Not exactly a moneymaker.

Alexei Skjellerup nods...

Da Etchegaray: i prefer impersonating a non-attorney

Benjamin Noble: Also, the phone number you are calling is on the state bar site, so you get to the person that way, no matter what the avatar tells you.

Solomon Cortes: I think the system Ben is proposing is simply to provide a 'best efforts' style of confirmation that an SLBA member claiming to be a lawyer qualified to practise in a particular jurisdiction is indeed so qualified. It still remains up to that individual to undertake all the local bar requirements before agreeing to represent anyone.

Solomon Cortes: Is that how you see it Ben?

Cristalle Karami: My "brother's keeper" allergy is popping up.... i think providing the bar information and an affidavit is enough. beyond that, you are treading into too much grounds with potential for abuse, theoretically, by someone in SLBA

Alexei Skjellerup nods...

Gert Waydelich: I see

Canary Young: If you are that good of a theif to steal a lawyers wallet, you get to impersonate them

Benjamin Noble: Yes, exactly, Solomon.

Gert Waydelich: then it's ok

Rykk Ferraris: They usually fall out in the golf cart, Canary

Gert Waydelich: and how could it be the way for foreigner lawyers as I am?

Jessica Holyoke: well, many of us are common law attorney's not civil law attorneys so there may be some disconnect there

Jessica Holyoke: I'm interested in hearing more from Gert about htat

Jessica Holyoke: or that

Cristalle Karami: and we are not insuring people here... we are simply making a best effort to provide a service to help people get in touch with real lawyers.

Solomon Cortes: Gert, the SLBA would verify you as a listed qualified to practise Italian lawyer (assuming you are!)

Gert Waydelich: In italy any district bas has got a website with all publically registered idenfication data of Italian lawyers, if it can be ueseful

Cristalle Karami: we need to make sure that the limitations of our verification is clear and that we are not liable for anything connected with that

Solomon Cortes: Agreed.

Geri Kuhn agrees with Cristallae

Benjamin Noble: Cristalle - those are good points. I feel like we should basically use our best reasonable efforts to get it right, and yes, make it absolutely clear what we do to anyone who wants to know.

Gert Waydelich: then it could be enough that the avatar owners who assume to be that lawyer give a written

Prokofy Neva: You are not the certification system, the state bars are the certification system, you are merely a yellow pages.

Geri Kuhn: Ultimately it needs to be up to the "client" to also verify

Alexei Skjellerup nods...

Cristalle Karami: absolutely, Geri

Solomon Cortes: I'd also make the point that the proposed system will carry an admin burden, and some costs. To that end, I'd recommend we charge a fee for providing the service that covers those costs, perhaps plus a margin to contribute to the running costs of the SLBA.

Ashcroft Burnham: That's not true, Prokofy: the SLBA is the system that verifies that a specific *avatar* is, in fact, a specific person, who is verified by the state bar association to be a qualified attorney.

Gert Waydelich: declaration of their identity

Benjamin Noble: Right - I think the most we can do is verify, to the best of our ability, that an avatar is tied to a real person with credentials. No more than that. Certainly no independent credentialing or oanything.

Jessica Holyoke: Its a difference between verification and certification

Benjamin Noble: /agrees with Solomon.

Da Etchegaray: who goes into the "yellow pages" is subject to fulfilling the conditions we're discussing. ie are you a RL attorney

Prokofy Neva: The SLBA should not be making claims of certification, it should be a referrals system that the consumer can follow on on. I would hope no SL resident would be paying real money to an SL attorney without making RL phone contact and seeing their RL law firm web page anyway.

Benjamin Noble: I thnk it has to have some cost, because it will burden someone in the group. It doesn't have to be a lot, but something to compenaste the organization for resources. We can use the money to fund education efforts or soemthing.

Cristalle Karami: people are naive and ignorant enough to do anything. never underestimate that.

Benjamin Noble: I'd hope not too, Prokofy! I think the most we can do is what's outlined above, certainly not certification.

Da Etchegaray: ok. but who does the SLBA provide referrals to?

Cristalle Karami: look at Ginko...

Prokofy Neva: Verification of an avatar-RL connection will be quickly merged with verification of a real-life person.

Da Etchegaray: verified attorneys

Benjamin Noble: Well, that's one thing I've been wondering -- behind all this -- is it even worth doing, or will LL get on the ball with verification fast enough?

Geri Kuhn: We aren't talking about a referral service yet, just a verification system

Vanora McMillan: Cris - exactly how I'm seeing it.

Benjamin Noble: I'd love to be able to pay $15 to prove I am me.

Benjamin Noble: But right now, I can't.

Alexei Skjellerup smiles...

Benjamin Noble: So do we try to come up with a system in the short term, like outline above, or do we wait and see what LL comes up with?

Jessica Holyoke: may I comment for a moment?

Benjamin Noble: Sure. Open floor.

Prokofy Neva: A notary in the US only verifies that a person has presented valid ID for a signature, for example, but people sometimes think a notarized document is "more legal"; and in other countries, notaries have more powers and different roles than in the US that are broader, and a notarized document can have greater weight, I mean that by analogy.

Ashcroft Burnham: I understand that the LL system might be delayed due to bugfixing efforts...

Gert Waydelich: however if can talk, I think we have two separated problems: if john smith says "I'm a lawyer and the owner of the ABC avatar" we must proof A9 he's truly john smith b) he's truly the owner of that ABC avatar

Jessica Holyoke: if we look at the SLBA as providing a referral system to qualified attorneys, if we are to maintain a list to help people to find attorneys admitted to practice where they are,then it should be our responsibility to verify them beyond anything the Lindens do. Its what we are exposed to not what other people are doing if we are to provide this service

Vanora McMillan: Ben =- I say wait so that was we can be more presice in our undertakings on this issue...

Benjamin Noble: We're definitely not going to vote this up or down today no matter what, Vanora - it needs more discussion.

Ashcroft Burnham: Actually, Ben, if the SLBA can provide a serious avatar name to RL identity verification method, it might have uses far beyond verifying that people are attorneys

Benjamin Noble: I'm just throwing the idea out, and I'm guessing that LL's service is so far away as to make this worth doing, but I don't know.

Gert Waydelich: and in second place we don't have a system to be sure that john smith will always lead ABC avatar instead of some other one person time by time, login by login

Vanora McMillan: Notarys do more that just that in the US btw...

Prokofy Neva: LL will only verify age, and in fact the service they retain to verify ID documents may make no other claim than age.

Jessica Holyoke: a very excellent point Gert

Benjamin Noble: I definitely think we have to avoid being in the business of doing this generally, Ashcroft. Trying to get caught up to Ger here.

Benjamin Noble: *Gert

Solomon Cortes: I agree. I think we should also separate out the discussion on verification, and the discussion on referral networks. For the moment, let's just discuss Ben's question: would it be helpful to offer a verification system?

Gert Waydelich: if can it be useful

Ashcroft Burnham: Well, somebody needs to do it.

Benjamin Noble: That is a great point Gert.

Gert Waydelich: in Italy we have a very advanced law regarding digital sign

Benjamin Noble: I agree, Ashcroft - it's just beyond the scope of what we are doing here.

Prokofy Neva: Vanora, I said it was *an analogy* and discussed *the most common usage of notaries* and how that differs from other countries.

Canary Young: If we don't have some verification, we will have no credibility

Solomon Cortes: Personally, to begin wiuth, as some of you may remember, I was quite sceptical. I now think that if we can implement Ben's suggestion (or something like it) cost effectively, it is a good one.

Benjamin Noble nods.

Gert Waydelich: it needs to give a full legal value to digital communication as if phisically done by the author

Benjamin Noble: Maybe a motion to move this to forums, with the specifics outlined above targetted for discussion?

Solomon Cortes: It will be helpful to people in SL to know that they are speaking with someone that the SLBA has taken reasonable steps to confirm is qualified to practise (or was so qualified ata particular date) in a specific jurisdiction.

Geri Kuhn: I so move

Gert Waydelich: it requires a smart card with a couple of codified keys, a public one and a secret one

Rykk Ferraris: I Second

Benjamin Noble: There's a motion and second.

Benjamin Noble: To move this to forums.

Benjamin Noble: Any objection?

Cristalle Karami: second

Benjamin Noble: Stand if you object. That makes this easier...

Benjamin Noble: Seeing none, motion carries.

Benjamin Noble: Okay, next, I'm going to turn the floor over to Little Gray who is going to talk - and take questions I think - about SL's ACLU Grop.

Benjamin Noble: *group

Benjamin Noble: Little?

Little Gray: thanks for th eintro Ben

Benjamin Noble: You can stand up or talk from there or whatever.

Ashcroft Burnham: :-D

Little Gray: i'm still editing the notecard about what I'm going to say so about 1/2 through my speech im probably going to fumble

Benjamin Noble: That's fine - I've learned I can hardly be perfect. I just said you had a grop.

Little Gray: let me begin my telling ya'all a little about the SL aclu

Little Gray: SL ACLU not an official ACLU chapter. ACLU National and ACLU N. Cal. both aware of our activities, but, there are a variety of issues specific to SL which need to be resolved before SL ACLU can become an official ACLU chapter with voting rights.

Little Gray: For example, the ACLU's bylaws allow chapters to be either geographic based, Like [insert your county name here] chapter of the ACLU, or public interest issue based, i.e. gay and lesbian rights chapter of the SL ACLU. Since SL is worldwide, a SL ACLU would overlap with the geographic region of other RL ACLU chapters.

Little Gray: Our present status is as an 'affiliate chapter of the N. Cal. ACLU' and we are looking for people interested in forming an ACLU chapter in SL to be on our 'organizing committee' to help elect inaguaral boardmembers of the SL ACLU chapter ... this is the procedure that any org. must follow to become an ACLU chapter with voting rights.

Little Gray: Presently, when ACLU chapters host events in SL they can come to the SL ACLU for assistance in hosting and publicising the event. A few months ago we co-hosted a 'day of rights' event with ACLU national complementing a day long series of protests in Washington DC. Congressman Jerry Nadler from New York appeared in world.

Little Gray: [this is all freshly drafted .. please ignore the typos, etc.]

Little Gray: At the moment, however, the SL ACLU does not operate within the auspsices of an official SL chapter. This allows us to publish events and bulletins without requireing the express approval of ACLU National (or whatever parent/umbrella chapter) the SL ACLU might fall under.

Little Gray: Similar to what the ACLU does in RL, the SL ACLU focuses on the protection of individual rights .. civil liberties. It's up to the board of the SL ACLU to fine tune the direction and scope. SL is an ideal forum for addressing and responding to international civil rights issues. To the extent that 'civil rights' exist in SL, the SL ACLU seeks to protect those rights.

Little Gray: International civil rights issues involve the protection of privacy and free speech from encoachment by governments OR international corporations, businesses, organizations.

Little Gray: SL civil rights issues we have been involved with include: taking a position on Electric Sheeps' Grid Shepard and avatar's rights to privacy, rights to criticism (or protest) against a commercial establishment without fear of being AR'd, abuse of process and unfair banning by LL, rights to engage in ageplay, and suddent and arbitrary changes in policies having an effect on resident business or what you can and cannot do in SL .. i.e. the gambling ban. Free speech and due process are huge issues in SL.

Little Gray: When issues come up, we try to lobby the involved parties (frequently LL) on the side of avatar rights, posting in formus, meeting in world with companies or LL to try to provide education on what would be 'fair' or respectful of an avatars rights (stemming from their right to own property in SL and contractual rights provided by LL.

Little Gray: ... well that's it for the 'canned' part ..

Little Gray wipes sweat from brow

Little Gray: we get a relatively large amount of questions from residents about their rights

Benjamin Noble nods. Will you take questions when you're done?

Solomon Cortes: Please let us know when you are ready for questions! (and thank you for your presentation) ; )

Solomon Cortes: Whoops - sorry Ben.

Little Gray: people want to know what they can and cannot display on their property, etc.

Little Gray: many of the issues that people come to us about aren't 'public interest matters'

Benjamin Noble: np solomon, get in practice for january

Little Gray: and we aren't really certain about how to determine whether something is a 'public interest' matter or a private matter

Little Gray: becausethe application of RL laws in SL is a little up in the air and a lot of people in SL are relatively unsophistaced when it comes to knowledge of the law and their rights ..

Da Etchegaray: if private interest hasnt fully defined itself than isnt everything public?

Little Gray: many issues that wouldn't be public interest in RL are of greater interest in SL just because things are so unclear, legally, that becommng involved with a dispute .. even from an 'amicus brief' perspective .. can help to clarify issues

Alexei Skjellerup frowns...

Little Gray: exactly Da

Little Gray: but .. in any event ..we do get a few people who might be better off served by attorneys

Da Etchegaray: gives a lot of power to the aclu chapter leadership to determine what is public, before either public or private is adequately defined.

Little Gray: its great the bar exists and I hope that the SL bar association and the SL ACLU can work together

Little Gray: the SL ACLU can provide a stream of referrals

Prokofy Neva: Little, could you explain why Anthony Romero who heads the national ACLU hasn't simply opened up an office/representation in SL if the ACLU is interested in being in SL, or for that matter, why your particular branch hasn't opened up its own branch. Why call it "The SL ACLU" and what steps are required to make it "a chapter of the ACLU"? Why not just make it an extention of a RL chapter? And what are you using to define "international civil rights law"?

Little Gray: I would like members of the SL Bar to know that they can refer folks to us, or come to us directly for assistance .. or second or third opinions .. on matters affecting 'civil rights'

Little Gray: yes Prokofy .. the reason is because of the technical issues with respect to what our bylaws are

Little Gray: and what our scope of jurisdiction would be

Prokofy Neva: The ACLU in RL defines public interest tied to law and public interest litigation in courts; the definition of "public interest" seems to be overbroad if a virtual ACLU just begins to take up everything "public" based on its political agenda.

Little Gray: if we were official, we couldn't do what we do in SL without obtaining approval from a parent chapter

Prokofy Neva: Well give us a summary of these "technical reason" -- it hasn't stopped IBM or Harvard University form simply opening up their representative offices in SL.

Little Gray: and the board of the parent chapter who would be voting on a SL ACLU proposal is largely compleetely ignorant of what SL is

Little Gray: we don't want to step on the toes of another ACLU chapter

Benjamin Noble: I'm not sure if Little is still on.

[NOTE: Unfortunately, I had moved out of Little Gray’s chat range here and thought he was offline.  Some of what follows is confusing because of that as I was unable to see any of Little's responses at the time.  Another member kindly provided this part of the transcript.]

Little Gray: and we don't want to misrepresent the ACLU

Cristalle Karami: move to table this discussion to the forums.

Prokofy Neva: Well maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing to a) obtain approval for campaigns and b) not have the board members be ignorant, but cognizant of how the name of the ACLU is being bandied about; for example in RL, is the ACLU taking a position against UIGA?

Solomon Cortes: On that point, my question - noting what you sead about the international nature of SL - is whether you are required to have a US focus in terms of issues covered, beneficiaries, or officers. If not, is the 'A' in 'ACLU' necessary? It would be great to have either an 'SLCLU' or an 'ICLU' (where 'I' stands for international).

Little Gray: well Romero is fully aware of our presence in SL

Little Gray: we did co host an event here with ACLU national and Im on speaking terms with national and n. Cal.

Little Gray: let me just say a couple things before wrapping up

Benjamin Noble: Cristalle has moved to invite Little to discuss this in the forums (note that the SLBA isn't related to the ACLU in any way, but I'd be happy to have a discussion about it there).

Benjamin Noble: Is there a second?

Prokofy Neva: well again as with the SLBA, there's a difference between using SL to educate about a RL organization's RL activities and attaching to things like a RL Day of Action in Washington an in issue, and picking up the crusading of inworld issues, self-defined.

Little Gray: We aren't official ACLU .. which means we can do things that an official ACLU can't do .. for instance .. I am working on getting Noam Chomsky to speak in SL

Solomon Cortes: Before there's a second....

Little Gray: I can work with Noam without having to get ACLU national approval

Vanora McMillan: second

Little Gray: second ..

Benjamin Noble: Yeah. I'm just not sure Little is online anymore.

Little Gray: we are looking for people to be on the organizing committee

Little Gray: this is open to any interested persons, preferably lawyers

Little Gray: or people with a technical background in SL

Benjamin Noble: Go ahead, Solomon.

Little Gray: or with detailed knowleged of the workings of LL SL client

Solomon Cortes: I would like to understand to what extent any SL ACLU must have some type of US nexus? It's fine if it does, but it restricts the scope of the group that may be interested in discussing in the forums. SApecifically, is SL ACLU relevant to anyone who does not have a US connection?

Little Gray: we need 12 people on teh organizing committee and only then can we go to the next steop of official ACLU chapterhood

Ashcroft Burnham: Anybody interested, incidentally, in civil liberties accross jurisdictional boundaries in SL should read: http://gwynethllewelyn.net/article192visual1layout1.html

Benjamin Noble: My understanding of the real life ACLU is it is limited to U.S. activity. But I'm not sure.

Benjamin Noble: Okay, any objection to the pending motion (stand if so).

Cristalle Karami: isn't that the A in ACLU? American?

Benjamin Noble: Ah.

Little Gray: THANK YOU .. . QUESTIONS?

Little Gray: but .. at this point .. official ACLU chapterhood might not be something the SL ACLU wants or needs in order to advocate rights in SL and simply provide assistance to r/l ACLU chapters when they want to have events in Second Life

[Note: At this point I moved back into Little Gray’s chat range and thought he had returned, not having seen any of the above.]

[11:28]  Benjamin Noble: Okay. Objection noted, and Little is back.

[11:29]  Solomon Cortes: I'm standing because I still want to know the relevance of SL ACLE to those who do not have a US nexus.

[11:29]  Solomon Cortes: Not because I object to that, or moofving this to the forum

[11:29]  Little Gray: solomon .. good question ..

[11:29]  Solomon Cortes: Just because I want to know if the discussions are relevant to non-Americans.

[11:29]  Solomon Cortes: Little, please can you clarigy.

[11:30]  Solomon Cortes: * clarify

[11:30]  Little Gray: i believe that civil rights are comparable to basic fundabmental human rights

[11:30]  Benjamin Noble: I'll let discussion go on for a bit, if anybody insists on a vote, you can "Call the previous question" but I'd like Little to be able to answer.

Little Gray: er .. civil rights don't exist just because of the first amendment etc .. thats US's codification of rights .. but similar rights exist in all countries

Little Gray: also .. LL is a US corp so it is somewhat bound by US laws

Solomon Cortes: SO SL ACLU could have non-US members, and non-US interests and beneficiaries, despite the 'A'?

Da Etchegaray: if LL is in the US and we are all subjected to an signifiat extent by LL and they way it views its legal standing, then we're all Americans. GW GOT HIS WAY!!

Prokofy Neva: Art. 19 is rather different than the US First Amendment, so what are you using to define your concept of "international civil rights" and where would you direct people to go to protect them? UN treaty bodies? Are they going to recognize SL?

Little Gray: so .. we try to help people in other countries from the invasion of their civil rights .. and protection of their rights from their own governments (i.e. other countries differing views on graphical representation of cartoon sex) and from the invasion of their 'rights' by US corporations

Benjamin Noble: Little - can you move to the front. I think the edges can't hear each other.

Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh - so the ACLU helps protect non-US people *from* the US? I like that

Little Gray: yes because in SL, we are AVATAR CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION

Little Gray: A - Avatar .. not American

Prokofy Neva: Little could you give a concrete example of the RL ACLU's cross-border international activity or campaign?

Rykk Ferraris: WTG, Little! Now yoiu're making sense!

Little Gray: National ACLU .. RL aclu is very much involved with international rights .. immigration .. things like that too

Solomon Cortes: Litlle, thank you for the clarification.

Prokofy Neva: immigration relates to US immigration and asylum law, I mean examples of where the ACLU becomes involved in helping citizens of other countries protect their rights under other governments and constitutions.

Little Gray: i would say immigration issues are the biggest international issues we are dealing with

Little Gray: transporting torture victims through other countries .. . uh

Little Gray: we work with coalition partners like amensty international all the time

Da Etchegaray: fyi. "We are now living in a world where closed-door negotiations in Geneva between U.S. Justice Department officials and their Swiss counterparts result in a knock on the door by FBI agents at an Internet Service Provider in Texas," said Steinhardt. "Although we are an organization that has always been focused on protecting liberty in a domestic American context, it is now impossible to do so without going global."

Da Etchegaray: http://www.aclu.org/privacy/gen/15327prs20050413.html

Prokofy Neva: That is an issue that the ACLU hopes to use U.S. law and courts for however, like cases under the Alien Torts Act, I mean examples where you are taking up the causes of other countries' citizens and their free speech regarding their governments and multinational corporations, I'm definitely not clear on that Little

Little Gray: thanks Da

Little Gray: well Prokofy .. heh .. your going to like this answer ... I can't officially speak on behalf of the ACLU

Prokofy Neva: well what does your "going global" *mean* for citizens of other countries and SL?

Da Etchegaray: search on "international" in aclu.org/ take a look. then comment.

Little Gray: we are interested in protecting the rights of citizens of other countries from infringement of their own rights, as they exist under their own laws, from unreasonably action by LL

Prokofy Neva: I am very familiar with it Da Etchergaray, I want to hear *LIttle Gray* answer because I'm interested that rogue chapters of the ACLU with even a more demonstrable political agenda than the RL ACLU not mislead people from other countries here.

Jessica Holyoke gave you New Note.

Little Gray: we aren't going to replace human rights groups from all over the world

Prokofy Neva: Couldn't you allow those countries' ACLU equivalents take that up? or work with something like Amnesty International? for example on torture.

Little Gray: the most helpful thing that could enhance our credibility would be to expand our board to cover a wider range of interest

Da Etchegaray: dont bait here prokofy. whats the issue. raise it and discuss it. how is a trap constructive?

Little Gray: we encourage other public interest groups to take up public interest/rights matters

Little Gray: and, to the extent we can, provide as much assistance as possible

Prokofy Neva: Da Etchegaray, groups that form in SL are not elected, appointed, registered under NGO laws, and have no standing other than just free assemblies of people freely expressing their opinion, and if that activity, while welcome, begins to set itself up as "governance" I'm definitely here to question it, whether form SLBA, ACLU, or Ravenglass Rentals. Full stop.

Benjamin Noble: Okay, thanks folks. I appreciate Little giving this presentation, and it definitely gives us a lot to think on and discuss in the forums.

Da Etchegaray: Question it, but dont bait people into traps. stating an opinion is wonderful.

Little Gray: er .. Prokofy .. we are operating under teh NGO laws of the ACLU which requrie us to establish and organizing committee first before becomming a chapter

Little Gray: thank you

Prokofy Neva: I haven't baited anyone, I've asked a normal question of a person who says he cannot speak on behalf of the ACLU, about what their internaitonl activity was; it was ok when Solomon asked that question' it's not ok when I ask it? Please.

Vanora McMillan claps

Benjamin Noble: Thanks again, Little. Would anyone care to call the previous question (force a vote on the motion to move further discussion to the forums?)

Benjamin Noble: We've got one more agenda item, and I want to wrap this up in less than two hours!

Vanora McMillan: PRo - wow...

Rykk Ferraris: I call the previous question

Vanora McMillan: CAll!

Benjamin Noble: Any objection, please stand.

Da Etchegaray: Ask questions when you know all the answers. That;'s called baiting. thanks.

Benjamin Noble: Motions passes.

Benjamin Noble: Okay, last on the agenda is hosting a social event, inviting other groups with similar goals, basically a meet and greet. I'm completely open to ideas on this, but I have been thinking we'd have a reception at our new offices when we move in.

Ashcroft Burnham: I like that idea!

Ashcroft Burnham: I suggest it be held in Caledon somewhere.

Benjamin Noble: I thought we'd be able to do that last month, but the build is going slowly, and we get it free, so I'm not complaining.

Ashcroft Burnham: Caledon is good for social events.

Benjamin Noble nods. I'd like to do it at our new space.

Benjamin Noble: So people get to see it and know where we are, but that's a good idea too.

Ashcroft Burnham: I like tea parties

Benjamin Noble grins. We'll have tea for you Ashcroft.

Ashcroft Burnham: Note to self: organise a Metaverse Republic tea party

Ashcroft Burnham: Tahnk you, Ben

Benjamin Noble: Okay. That's just informational, basically, but if you know of groups that might want to come, shoot me a note or post in the forums.

Solomon Cortes: How about the new SLBA space when ready, and after to some place else for some kind of activity: like racing or sno-booarding?

Benjamin Noble: That's a great idea, Solomon.

Jessica Holyoke: i can always recommend Sl surfing

Gert Waydelich: I apologyze but I must leave the meeting

Benjamin Noble: Thanks for coming, Gert.

Gert Waydelich: goodbye all you

Benjamin Noble: We're wrapping up.

Benjamin Noble: Anyway.

Gert Waydelich: thnaks Ben

Benjamin Noble: Is there a motion to adjourn?

Jessica Holyoke: motion to adjourn

Benjamin Noble: Second?

Rykk Ferraris: Second

Benjamin Noble: Any objection (stand if so...)

Benjamin Noble: Without objection, motion carries.

Benjamin Noble: We're adjourned.